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Pardon my ignorance, but would loading a forked version of android (like lineageOS or grapheneOS) get around this? I know graphene at least puts all Google services in its own container. Would that allow the rest of the system to run “side loaded” apps? Or is this unavoidable if you use any version based on android?
Cause at this point, I’m considering loading Ubuntu touch on here
This isn’t a fight over security, or even the control to form a walled garden. This is to eliminate privacy, the ability to run anonymously written code. This forces every bit of code to be tied to a name and face. It shortens the legal legwork needed to pin down who made what, this will be used to eliminate anonymous groups compiling their own E2EE communication network. Time is important when your trying to use a compromised member of a group to make a honeypot trap.
This isn’t a fight over security, or even the control to form a walled garden. This is to eliminate privacy, the ability to run anonymously written code. This forces every bit of code to be tied to a name and face. It shortens the legal legwork needed to pin down who made what, this will be used to eliminate anonymous groups compiling their own E2EE communication network. Time is important when your trying to use a compromised member of a group to make a honeypot trap.
ETA: Whoops, hit the wrong reply button
They can piss off, there is no way I’m dowloading Google’s ad ridden garbage apps of of their store. I’d rather stop using mobile phones alltogether
Same. Or keeping a shitty one around just for emergencies
Not only we have basic right taken from us, the available software made by corporations is much buggier and less usable than ever. I am grateful that I am actually going away from tech/IT and pursuing other hobbies/interests, because I am less frustrated that way.
And I’ve decided to switch to Linux (Debian with KDE btw), because aside from its learning curve, it’s much easier to manage than Windows installation.
I can only hope the EU will set Google straight, the way they did Apple.
Considering:
A) You can still install any app you want beyond the Play Store (the rule is that developers need to get all their apps signed, and doesn’t effect the end user technically)
And
B) Its most likely being done because of the EU, it’s a part of the DSA (https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/digital-services-act_en). The “trader status”, and other parts against illegal content)
The EU most like has already set them straight and this is the result.
Signed by who? Google? If so how does that not basically give them a monopoly on what can be installed?
And what about privacy? If somone wants to build an app to help whistleblowers, they have to expose themselves to a shady shitty mega Corp like Google?
Also why? Every other week there is some article about malicious apps leaking into the playstore. If they can’t even control their own store, why would they police everything.
The number of people I encounter, even on Lemmy, that genuinely believe and rigorously argue that being able to install or distribute software on devices you own is actually bad because “security” is beyond horrifying to me. They have been brainwashed into thinking that corporate monopolies are not only acceptable but desirable because you can completely and blindly trust Mom’s Old Fashioned Robot Oil to make all your decisions for you, for a modest fee and no opting out, of course.
This is why society is collapsing.
Dude, I’ve been fighting this fight for over 10 years starting on reddit.
The amount of people, even supposedly?!? tech savy people that bootlick and excuse corporate behaviour is maddening. To the point makes you want to be conspiratorial and think they are saboteurs.
What I will never EVER understand is being loyal and “loving” a company. No matter if it’s Apple, Samsung, Google they ARE NOT your friends. In fact they are the exact opposite and will make your life worse if it means they can squeeze an extra cent out of you.
I am not sure if enhanced (and force-fed) security features are the main problems here. Monopolies, spying and not having easily accessible alternatives (easy from the perspective of a more average user) are the main problems. Because google and apple are monopolies, most security critical apps like banking apps (that you unfortunately need now a days) don’t support alternative OSs which also feedbacks the monopoly. Otherwise I am fine if some people opt for a phone that is basically a locked black box for them so long as there are other alternatives (including those which are still super secure/locked but does not spy).
It is much more crazy to me that you have to fight your device so that it does not sneakily do something that you don’t want it to do (like install AI out of the blue or use data for mapping your habits). And most average users won’t give this fight and that is what these companies really count on.
Do some banks not have websites anymore?
The website only works with Chrome
They do but they focus so much on their apps that apps are becoming more practical than the websites to use for small tasks. They are even trying to usher people to use their apps for seed generators. And some other stuff like seeing instantly how much money was withdrawn from your account after a purchase only is useful with a phone app notification. Other “digital banks” like revolut or monzo simply does not exists outside of the app world and in terms of exchange rates and what not, they simply have no competition if you travel couple times a year.
If its such a security threat make it opt in for the users that want it. Idc about googles opinion on security I can handle that myself.
That’s literally what its like now. There’s a scare message and a toggle
Megacorps gonna megacorp.
Monopolies gonna monopoly.We can fight these giants by not using their services & products.
It only gets harder to fight them the more we give in.
I can’t even get people to switch to LibreOffice, not cuz they use some advanced MS Office feature but because the interface “looks dated”. So they’d rather pay a subscription for life to use software that spies on them than download free software that does what they need but has a 2010s style interface.
Humans suck so much.
because the interface “looks dated”.
The real issue is M$ intentionally not following standards, so that opening an Office doc may or may not properly render in other suites. Hooray for EEE. Fuckers.
Ngl, I installed a few OnlyOffices just because of UI.
It has ribbon UI and about the same placement of buttons as MS Office stuff.It’s fine.
(Based in Latvia, but they had a Russian momma, now Singapore.)
Humans are creatures of habit, and risk averse most of the time. Risk, being change of any sort when things seem “stable.”
All you can do is lead by example and enjoy life and tell those poor souls they’re stupid for spending money for something they can change the look like MS Office easily.
I get what you are saying but is it really too much to ask for an interface that looks like it belongs there?
I’m not willing to pay for it, are you? If no then its to much to ask.
I “pay” LibreOffice.
Why not??
I prefer the old school style menus and such. I stopped using MS Word around the time that they came out with the ‘ribbon’ style menus or whatever it’s called, so if they ‘update’ it I sure hope it’s as an option or a fork.
I can understand people who grew up with it or who have spent years using it might like it better though.
They claim this is about security but when your system is compromised there is fuck all they will do to help you.
Fucking hypocritical, control-hungry pricks.
It’s about the security of their brand. No sane company wants people walking around, talking about shit their phone is because it keeps getting infected.
Some of these comments are wild.
The OS should not at all stop me from doing what I want to do. Ever. Not even if that means I can fuck it up.
They can warn me when I attempt to do things that could fuck shit up. They can make it a bit harder to navigate to certain things so I’m less likely to fuck shit up. But it’s my god damn hardware. I should be able to run and configure the software on it as I see fit.
But we subsidised the cost of your phone so we could make sweet sweet recurring revenue off your usage habits and targeted advertising!
You wouldn’t want to take that away from us would you? Won’t SOMEBODY think of the shareholders?!
I’m getting really sick of products being only available subsidized by a level of invasiveness that should be illegal.
The government should need an individualized warrant to purchase my data. And honestly Google should need one to collect it
I’m getting really sick of products being only available subsidized by a level of invasiveness that should be illegal.
You mean like smart TVs?
I realise you’re being facetious, but if anything Google made my phone more expensive with the certification process.
meh both on mac and windows you’re not the true admin of the machine. mac requires disabling SIP and some others to even be able to delete default applications for example and don’t get me started on windows. linux ftw (as I type this from my old ass ios device)
you can get all the right you need with a little trickery. I mean, psexec is made and distributed by Microsoft, freely. a simple download. and I don’t think it’s bad that the average user can’t run everything immediately as TrustedInstaller or SYSTEM.
that’s a nice option to have, at least. i’ve s few more complaints left for each OS, but in the end i’d prefer a linux style and level of control over a machine and overall less abstraction. we’re getting software locked out most hardware nowadays: cars, household appliances, public transit, airports, privacy and so on
To be clear, Kolanaki is saying that that is not how an OS should behave.
oh yea I agree I was just venting further; prefer less hand holding
I mean nobody is shocked that they both suck. If it’s not open source you are not in control.
I think that just falls under “make it a bit harder to navigate to certain things so I’m less likely to fuck shit up.”
From a personal freedom POV, I agree. But, if it was easy it would be a support nightmare.
Google and Apple scan every app that gets loaded into their app stores for malware. There’s also a lengthy review process, even just for updates. Some malware does still slip through, but it’s a trickle compared to what gets blocked. If sideloading apps were easy, my younger sister would be in so much trouble. She’d have various accounts phished within a day. She’d install something that drains the battery within an hour and not understand what was going wrong. And, she’s relatively tech savvy. I have no idea how the older generation would survive.
Of course, since Apple and Google make 30% of every sale on the app store, they’re not purely motivated to just keep their users safe. The real problem is that there is a duopoly in smartphones. Apple and Google have essentially the same policies, and if you don’t like them you have no other options. If there were a dozen OSes, there could be smart phones for Granny that had everything locked down, and smart phones for h4x04z that didn’t. Companies that struck a good balance between protecting their users and allowing their users freedom would do well in the market. Companies that didn’t would shrink and fail.
my younger sister would be in so much trouble.
your younger syster should have parental controls on, and it’s worrying that you suggest it is not the case. I don’t know their age but most probably they shouldn’t be able to install any apps from anywhere without parent approval.
She’d have various accounts phished within a day.
guessing fron what we already know, she probably shouldn’t have half of those accounts.
My younger sister is in her 40s. She’s a pretty typical cell phone user.
in that case parental controls would still solve a lot of problems, including this one
I think your parents should turn on their parental controls because you’re going a bit wild, buddy.
oh don’t worry daddy google will turn it on for all of us thanks to the deranged irresponsibility of your kind.
if someone is so tech illiterate that they are breaking the phone’s software and leaking their information all over the internet, they cannot be responsibly allowed to use that device without restrictions.
I bet you are one of those that want forced government ID based age verification everywhere because you agree with people who can’t be bothered to set limits on their kids phone.
K
I mean you’re basically arguing for parental control, it is just done by google.
K
Sure, but there’s a good argument that that should be an end-user issue, and not something that the OS/Phone manufacturer should be trying to mitigate. It’s a risk you take when owning a device, that you can also break it, or get it infected.
Otherwise, why bother selling the phone in the first place, rather than contracting it out under a rental agreement?
So? Don’t run fishy files off the internet unless you’re open to the risks. Have secure walls that require either a setting change or individual permission grants before they can access secure apps.
Operating systems are prone to natural monopoly or duopoly. Furthermore there’s anti consumer incentives here in that governments want surveillance data and os companies sell it.
Where competition fails to protect consumers governments must. And that includes protection from governments. I know it’s ironic today as we’re in a fascist regime, but that’s one of the basic principles of my country. So anyways please Europe protect us worldwide consumers from American companies.
Have you people never worked in IT support? Like its all fair and good that you, a power user, dont want the OS to restrict you at all. But for your averrage person to be treated the same is just asking for disaster.
I have worked in IT. People still manage to screw up shit that’s locked down. Babysitting everyone because some people are just technologically incompetent is stupid and does not solve any actual problems.
A hidden option to unlock power user mode solves this
Yeah exactly. Though i would personally say a bit more obfuscation is needed then a simple hidden switch.
Don’t hide it. That’s pointless. Make it so someone has to type “I understand what I’m doing and my username is blah” into a box to activate “advanced” mode, after reading a warning, sure.
I don’t disagree, but it’s very funny that LinusTechTips went through that exact process a moment before publically destroying his desktop on PopOS
Right, but pretty much everyone but Linus and his sycophants agree that was a bone headed mistake. If you type “I understand what I am doing…” and you do not understand- you are asking for trouble.
Granted, that bug shouldn’t have existed in the first place but I feel like the warning should have raised a big red flag for a ‘tech expert’. It almost feels like he did it on purpose to prove some sort of point about how Linux ‘isn’t there yet’ but ofc there is no way to prove that.
Can’t IT lock things down if they so desire? That is the owner of the device using it as they see fit: Locking it down so the non technical users of the device can’t break it. That you keep suggesting that devices should come out of the box restricted would make your IT job obsolete and in fact impossible to perform.
Edit: And before you ask yes I have worked in IT support, although I currently do not.
Not corporate IT, but IT for home users, back in the days when things were much less locked down basically every computer i got access too was completely crawling with malware. Had tons of people lose all of their data including family photos and the like because they dowloaded something dodgy off limewire and their system just let them run it.
Why cant you guys understand that the vast vast majority of computer users are not technical? And as such need those safety rails in place to save them from their own ignorance?
they are crawling with malware today, from the factory, except it is harder to remove, especially on smartphones.
safety rails are not steal walls. instead of walls education is needed. education can happen not only in schools.
Most Android phone owners don’t even know they are Android phone owners.
We’ll always need safety rails, I think the thing you’re missing in most of the arguments you’re seeing here is that people want ways over or around those safety rails, and that those safety rails do not need to be as strict as they’re becoming. That is not the case currently and that is definitely not the direction AOSP or iOS are interested in going.
Also, just for the record, comparing the modern era of computing to the limewire era is bananas.
Is that not what sideloading is? A way over the safety rails?
Not at all. Root access would be a way over safety rails.
Also the context of this post is that Google is attempting to make “side loading” harder.
Exactly.
I have no problem with safety rails for those who need it, my problem is that with each passing update these rails become obligatory and non-removable.
“Why isn’t x working! I set x on my [insert device here] and now it won’t turn on!”
I finally want to switch to android and boom: Custom ROMs and “sideloading” gets swept off the platter. Well ok I guess I‘ll just wait for a good linux mobile OS
So annoyed that just bought a Pixel 8a for Graphene. I thought I’d get to use it til 2030 when it stops getting security patches and now I might not even get a full year out of it.
GrapheneOS still intends to support all the supported devices until EOL. The sideloading change doesn’t affect them. It won’t apply to GrapheneOS. It only applies to certified OSes and GrapheneOS is not certified because it doesn’t license Google Mobile Services. As per the rip out of the device trees for Pixels, that just makes Pixels like other phones. GrapheneOS has been able to expand it’s automation to build that device support themselves. For new devices, making the support will take longer than it did in the past though, but they will still support those Pixels, as long as they meet the hardware requirements and still allow third-party OS support with all security features intact. Besides that GrapheneOS is actively talking with a major Android OEM right now in order to help them reach the security requirements for a subset of their future devices. They are very optimistic about that.
SailfishOS. Fun fact, it’s also finnish.
Just an FYI I think they still did not deliver on the promise of open sourcing.
And I believe you’re still supposed to buy a license unless that’s changed recently.
SteamOS. Outside of Ubuntu and other corp distros, if steam made a mobile-specific os or invested in arch enough to make a mobile friendly UI I would be interested
Heh, good luck trying to sideload anything on Linux…
Right? Linus Torvalds keeps that source code under lock and key.
I had to ‘sideload’ the secret of mana port because play store would refuse to validate the license offline after purchase. If I can’t play offline a single player game that i bought, than what should i do.
I also have an apk of wayward souls, because it was removed from the store and i like that game. Also a premium game. So yes. Running software as i see fit.
If I ever go insane and write a manifesto this will be on it.
Sounds fairly sane to me.
This is fine, but the other 582 pages contain some real doozies.
