The new Tesla Model 3 should be banned from the whole of Europe until they put the indicator stalk back. It is virtually impossible to safely and legally traverse a roundabout without it.
How do people indicate without it? Is the car supposed to automatically turn it on once it senses you leaving the lane?
It has little buttons on the wheel for left or right instead of a stalk. Problem is when you’re going through a roundabout you’re twirling the wheel around so it is almost impossible to to know where the buttons are at any given point in time. A stalk stays put, the buttons are anywhere depending on where the wheel is at. I think this video demonstrates it most clearly - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBFxbKTEWu8
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What the fuck is the point of an indicator after you’d already started the action. That light ain’t indicating any more about the driver than the fact that they bought a Tesla after 2022, and that tells you everything you need to know about them.
That’s just too late to signal…
When I drive roundabouts I keep my hands on the wheel in the same spots so in relation to my thumb, the turn signals are in the same spot?
I think if the wheel wasn’t a yoke shape, it’d be different because I might just put one hand on top, but in this case it works OK.
Since the yoke forces you to keep your hands on the same place relative to the button, presuming you’re keeping your hands on the wheel
While in the EU Teslas were already “banned”, if you want a proper cat B license, and not just a cat B(78). If you take the test in a car with automatic transmission you get a code 78 license, with which you can legally only drive automatic transmission vehicles.
Is the EU mostly manual transmissions?
In the US, seeing a manual transmission these days is somewhat rare. I used to work at a car dealership’s service department as a valet, and most of us younger guys who’d never driven a manual before had to get someone else to drive it whenever one showed up. (That happened maybe once a month or less.)
Manuel transmission used to be the norm. The last couple of times I rented a car/got a loaner at the mechanic, I was asked if an automatic would be OK. I have met people who avoid automatics altogether. Probably because they’re unsure of how to drive them. TBF the first time I test drove an automatic, the first stop I made, I was glad to be wearing my seat belt, as I was used to use left foot, push that pedal hard and then brake… My wife and I were almost climbing down from the dashboard after that.
When I said earlier that manuels used to be the norm, that’s because of the emergence of EVs and PHEVs. Our EV was our first car with no clutch.
Sooo after writing that boring drivel above, I decided to look it up on the most used second hand car platform. Turns out the about half the cars registered as pure ICEs are automatics. But then sampling the search results it’s evident that a lot of the cars on the first page, have been registered wrong, and are in fact hybrids. So I don’t have a solid figure. I’ve loitered the sales floor of my mechanic for 30mins, while my car is in for diagnosics. Looks like about 3 out of last 20 or so ICEs I’ve looked at are automatics.
I live in the UK, I’ve only ever driven manuals. I know one or two people with automatics, wouldn’t fancy having one myself though. I feel like the manual shift gives me more control.
I prefer manuals, they’re more fun to drive, but the future is inevitably automatic with EVs.
Yes Europe is mostly manual. You pay a heavy premium to get a car with automatic transmission. Anecdotally, I bought a Skoda ~5 years ago and had to pay ~20% more for automatic transmission than manual.
Had a quick look at used cars here.
https://www.ooyyo.com/france/used-cars-for-sale/c=CDA31D7114D3854F111BFB6FAA651453/
Seems very much dependent on which country you’re in. France seems 50/50, Germany a lot more Automatic, Belgium prefers manual. Been to Iceland a few times and that is mostly automatic. The UK is mostly manual.
I was even told that my insurance would be lower because manuals were harder to steal because so few people can drive’m.
I wish that was true in my city. I love driving the manual shift car but it certainly hasn’t saved us anything on car insurance. The idea of a car thief who can’t drive stick shift is so funny, needs a movie. The only benefits beyond fun and not worrying about an automatic transmission failing is some odd respect from valet guys and mechanics and old men.
At least in my country and in the middle of the EU, manuals are still more popular than automatic ones. Usually because no one really wants an electric cars (due to lack of infrastructure and high price), people just get the basic petrol cars with manual transmissions.
I’m an American living in Denmark. Everyone here knows how to drive them even if their current car is automatic. They are becoming more popular, though.
Of course everyone knows how to drive an automatic, there is nothing to learn if you already know how to drive a manual. You just push the pedal and the car moves.
Nah, automatic are common.
The reasoning is, if you know how to drive manual you also know how to drive automatic, but not vice versa.
Used to be, but the transition to mostly automatic is happening as we speak
Yeah, it’s not designed with roundabouts, (i.e. road infrastructure designed with logic and common sense) in mind.
It’s not designed with any common sense in mind. They just figured they could a) cut costs and b) make the vehicle look “cleaner”, because Musk and the people who work for him are intellectually incurious morons who refuse to learn why things are designed the way they are before trying to reinvent them.
The thing about breaking the rules is that if you want to really do it well, you have to understand why those rules exist in the first place. That’s hard to do when you start from the position of just assuming that you’re smarter than everyone else.
i am not sure they even kept the cost down since they had to reintroduce the option of normal steering wheels, this just another case of Musk thinking it looks cool so it should be, but then done poorly because they don’t have the engineering expertise to do it properly like lexus did it
This is just another case of Cybertruck shit.
It was designed to cut costs and hope fanbois would think it was innovation. It’s so dangerous a change it should be banned in countries where drivers are expected to properly indicate while traversing roundabouts.
Cuz that’s the only place you want to signal intent to other drivers?
Well, in a roundabout how else are the other drives gonna know you turn right?
There are other places you signal intent. At every turn in fact
For those that don’t want to read the article:
Tesla is going with buttons on the steering wheel instead of a stick to the left of the wheel
In Norway, you have to indicate your exit in a roundabout by activating your turn signal, and he found it difficult while turning the steering wheel, which you have to do in a roundabout. A driving student would fail their test if they don’t activate their turn signal in a roundabout in Norway.
He said:
I tested the Model 3, and noticed that I lost both focus and direction in roundabouts. It’s not directly life-threatening, but you run the risk of both driving on curbs and other cars if there are two lanes.
After posting his findings in a group for driving schools, he was met with agreement by many other instructors who said that they experienced the same issue and the risk is much higher with students.
It’s like car features that have been around for 70+ years are the way they are for a reason.
Reminds me of the guy that built that sub that got crushed. There are standards in place for good reasons and ignoring them is a bad idea.
Yup, and just like the sub Tesla did multiple things that were substandard because they worked in controlled environments and even worked ok the real world for a short time before failing.
People who actually know how to signal in a roundabout are a rare breed. Dunno how it’s in other countries but the German rules actually make sense: Don’t signal when entering. There’s exactly one way to go, so why would you. Don’t signal when driving around the roundabout as that’s straight ahead (even if it’s a circle). Do signal before the exit you want to take, this is for the benefit of people waiting to enter (or maybe those behind but only on 2-lane roundabouts). As a corollary: If you signal while you enter you’re pining straight for the first exit… but honestly avoid it too many people signal wrong so it’s better to not play fast+loose.
That’s not the way I learned in France, where they make you signal left before entering and use the inner lane, only if you’re going further than halfway through the roundabout.
You signal right before entering only if you’re taking the first exit.
In any case you signal right after driving past the last exit before your own.
in the Netherlands people often do signal left while on the roundabout but that feels mostly because of cyclists who also do so.
Tesla is going with buttons on the steering wheel instead of a stick to the left of the wheel
Its even worse than that. The buttons are smooth surface (like a touch screen) with haptic feedback. These are truly a horrible idea:
If I had one of these Tesla cars I’d look into retrofitting the stalks back in.
Wtf, seriously? I’ve tried using media buttons on the steering wheel during a turn. It’s not reliable in the slightest, because it’s a moving target.
Does the non circular steering non-wheel never go past 90 degrees or something?
I once accidentally dialed 911 from my steering wheel phone buttons while pulling a turn. Surprised the shit out of me and the dispatcher didn’t sound like this was the first call of the type. This is a fucking terrible idea.
Tbf you are supposed use the signal before turning wheel
Covered in the article. In Norway you are required to signal when exiting a roundabout. It’s a fair concern.
If you are going hand-over-hand in a roundabout, you’re doing something very wrong…
That’s not the issue, imagining driving through a roundabout that curves left and having to find a button somewhere on the steering wheel, which is at an angle, in order to indicate right before turning tight in order to exit the roundabout.
A stalk will always be in the same position. The same cannot be said for buttons.
imagining driving through a roundabout that curves left and having to find a button somewhere on the steering wheel
Your don’t have to “find” anything, it’s right next to your thumb
Drivers frequently change their hand placement as they turn the wheel. You lose precision and basic ability to manipulate the wheel if you don’t.
In addition to roundabouts, there are plenty of freeway exists that loop around where you can be at an extreme turn and need to initiate a lane change. Or making a right turn into a gas station after a left turn at an intersection… lots of use cases.
Yikes, that is incredibly dangerous. Hopefully, they get recalled to fix that issue. No turn signal stick is going to cause a lot of accidents if people are unfamiliar with the car or are spinning the steering wheel and pressing the wrong button (or no buttons, because it’s too difficult).
Can we just ban them entirely? Horrible cars.
The comment about roundabouts is the same for Australia. You wait a roundabout entrance, with your indicator telling people what you intend to do on the roundabout, and that indication stays until you are ready to leave the roundabout, which you are then required to indicate left (unless you were already indicating left!).
Having moving buttons on the steering wheel is an absolutely absurd idea. Not just for indicating, anything important (I dont mean volume control for the radio, or phone answer button) should never be on a rotating object, where it can be inaccessible or “not where it should be” in a time of need (or required).
That’s a regional thing - I was very confused when I lived in QLD and that’s how people were driving. In Victoria everyone indicates the final direction before they enter the intersection (eg indicate right before entering if you’re taking 3rd exit, indicate left if you’re taking first exit).
I think that is what I said.
But on exiting we will have to indicate left. so if I’m taking the 3rd exit, I am indicating right, until just before I get to it, where I then change to left indicate to say I’m exiting. Even if you are going straight (so not indicating) you are still require to indicate left when about to exit.
Its less meaningful on a 3 or 4 road roundabout, but when the roundabout has 5 or more roads, or maybe even a double roundabout (There is one here, and its an accident hotspot!!) then indicating your leaving is very important.
Pretty sure that this road rule in a national rule, not per state. But I know that some places do not enforce the exit indication.
It’s not law in VIC iirc, it’s a common courtesy but not a requirement. Like when indicating to jump in a lane, giving the driver who let you in a wave. Or blinking your headlights when there is a copper in the direction you came from.
I found it, just to put it to bed. It is a National rule, but it is interpreted differently between states.
https://www.yingtongli.me/blog/2019/06/16/arr-roundabout-exit.html
I wished that the link was more from our government, however I followed up the National laws this posts states, and they are indeed correct. Australian Road Rule 118 says it is required (in any circumstance) but only if practical. And that seems to stem from Vic and other states with larger 3 or 4 lane roundabouts (which would suck).
The post also comments:
A casual search of internet forums reveals many confused drivers believing that this is optional, or is not a road rule, or is, indeed, a silly thing to do. From personal experience, the vast majority of drivers do not indicate left when leaving roundabouts. The law, however, is clear that a left change of direction signal must be given when leaving a roundabout, ‘if practicable’.So I’m happy to indicate left on leaving the roundabout, it doesnt bother me anyhow. But it would be a total headache for Tesla drivers, and my indicators are on my wheel and not in the right location at the time, would not constitute as “impractical” as far at the process. The car might be impractical, the the process should not have been,
Yeah if a roundabout is small - single lane, 2-3 exits, 10m or less in diameter - you can get away with doing this (indicating your final direction).
Once they get bigger - bigger diameter, multiple lanes, more exits - its safer to indicate your intention to enter and exit the roundabout.
Leak of Tesla’s next-gen Steering wheel:
Tesla’s reasoning for going away with a method universally used for signaling turn for decades is that it enables them to remove a physical part, the stalk, and it believes activating a turn signal will soon be unnecessary with the advent of self-driving.
Spit my drink up a bit when I read that.
Meanwhile Teslas are quickly building a reputation of being impossible to repair, so replacing an industry standard component that never breaks for a digital system is a great way to keep the title.
Norway, where Tesla is becoming the most popular car brand
How the fuck are Norwegians affording that
Because they are rich. Also Norway has quite large government subsidies for EVs. IIRC they are exempt from the 25% VAT for example.
EVs aren’t exactly cheap, but petrol cars are even more expensive.
Tesla fucking up traditional driving controls only make sense if their self-driving system is working so the driver has no need to touch the steering wheel except in rare case. How good is Tesla’s full self driving these days?
It regularly kills people. It can’t be used on a lot of road types (but people still do because Tesla makes no effort to prevent it). It’s still marketed as Full Self Driving despite the fact that Tesla has stated on the record that it is, and I quote, “Not capable of driving itself.”
They’re trying to have their cake and eat it too. Any time it benefits them, they claim that their cars are completely autonomous vehicles powered by the most advanced AI. Any time they get their wrists slapped, they claim that it’s an assistive feature like cruise control that cannot and will not ever replace the human behind the wheel.
Full Self Driving is still in beta stage.
AI DRIVR has good content on Tesla FSD if you’re actually interested in knowing how good it is.
No, I’m actually interested to know. Are most Tesla owners activate self driving during their daily commute? Tesla doesn’t sell their vehicle here so the only times I actually see a Tesla are in car shows.
We’ve had news stories - and a friend’s coworker too - of people sleeping on the highway portion of their commute. The friend’s coworker did it daily for months, setting an alarm when it was probably going to be ‘street’ driving time so he’d wake up and be ready.
The friend’s coworker did it daily for months
That’s both extremely stupid and irresponsible but also quite impressive on Tesla’s part.
Being able to sleep (or not paying any attention to the road) is the entire reason I would get a self driving car (assuming it’s safe to do so). But aren’t you required to keep your hands on staying wheel when engaging full self driving? And I think the car has camera to monitor driver attentiveness too. Can you really fall asleep during commute like that?
They say it’s beta but beta would imply that it’s at least somewhat close to ready, which it clearly isn’t even after being in “beta” for a long ass time.
You got games on your tesla?
Style over substance, and a ugly style at that. Of course lots of people are gonna love it and say it is the best thing ever.
lots of people are gonna love it and say it is the best thing ever.
Kind of funny reading this in a thread filled with a bunch of tripping over each other trying to show how they hate Tesla the most.
The Fediverse does not represent the real world. There is big anti-corporate and anti-Elon bias here. Most people just don’t give a shit.
I understand that. It’s the irony of seeing someone partaking in a circle jerker shitting on other people for circle jerking.
Replacing physical controls with touch buttons continues to be an incredibly dumb idea. Luckily several other manufactures who hopped on the trend are realizing it was a bad choice.
Is nobody gonna mention this horrible KITT steering wheel?!? That damn thing is dangerous.
They also don’t ship with the yoke by default anymore, the default is a regular round one and have been for a while.
Yeah round wheels are not a fuckin style choice. It’s so you can grab it anywhere in any situation. This steering wheel looks fuckin deadly
It’s a yoke because top tier race cars use yokes and Elon thinks his teslas are that for some reason. Completely disregarding all the setup and engineering race cars have that make a yoke the more viable option than a wheel…
They are the worst drivers by infractions. Dead wheel is a culling tool.
You can’t even grab 10:00 and 2:00 on it. Looks like the closest you can get is 4:00 and 8:00
10 and 2 is actually no longer taught. 9 and 3 is the new thing
Or 8 and 4.
Keep those arms away from the airbag’s path
Ever seen what real life F1 car steering “wheels” look like?
They aren’t meant for public roads, just like Teslas.
Does anyone remember K.I.T.T from Knight Rider in the 80’s?
Same steering wheel! Haha
But K.I.T.T. actually delivered on the full self driving part.
