Some of the top browser makers around have issued a letter to the European Commission (EC) alleging that Microsoft gives the Edge browser an unfair advantage and should be subject to EU tech rules.

A letter seen by Reuters, sent by Vivaldi, Waterfox, and Wavebox, and supported by a group of web developers, also supports Opera’s move to take the EC to court over its decision to exclude Microsoft Edge from being subject to the Digital Markets Act (DMA).

As Edge comes pre-installed by default on Windows machines, users must navigate the Microsoft offering in order to download their browser of choice. The letter states that, “No platform independent browser can aspire to match Edge’s unparalleled distribution advantage on Windows. Edge is, moreover, the most important gateway for consumers to download an independent browser on Windows PCs.”

  • Matriks404@lemmy.world
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    You could say the same about Android and iOS. They are preloaded with a web browser not many people change. In fact I’ve noticed that many users (mostly older) using Android don’t even know what browser they are using, since they just type shit into Google widget on their home screen.

  • nek0d3r@lemmy.world
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    I completely understand where this is coming from, but I’m just a little confused about what the solution would be. For the average consumer and certainly the target users for Windows, shipping with a browser is the expected norm, and none are expected to open a terminal, much less run tools like winget. I guess you could have a setup dialog of major browsers to choose from?

    • squid_slime@lemm.ee
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      2 hours ago

      Click ‘browse web’ Microsoft gives a list of popular and mixed browsers that the user can select. Microsoft then installs selected browser. At least this is the only tangible way I can see.

      • rmuk@feddit.uk
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        2 hours ago

        Anyone else remember this badboy?

        For the uninitiated, BrowserChoice.eu was a popup and associated website that Microsoft was forced to create by the EU courts becasue of their monopoly in 2010.

        Also, an opinion: Edge was a great browser even before they switched to Chromium. I wish they’d kept at it so there was a better variety of rendering engines out there.

  • bitwolf@lemmy.one
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    18 hours ago

    MS is literally back to square one its about damn time.

    They’re even worse now and aggressively pressure you to use edge if it’s not the default.

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    I’m not defending Microsoft… but if we’re going to go after a tech company for leveraging their other assets to give themselves an unfair advantage can we also go after Google?

    In the first releases of Edge, Microsoft tried to build a new web browser from scratch to compete with Google Chrome. By google kept changing YouTube’s code so that videos would playback janky on Edge. Microsoft eventually gave up trying to fix for YouTubes ongoing changes and now Edge is based on Chromium (the same open source web browser maintained by Google, that chrome os built on). Google leveraged YouTube to prevent completion from Edge.

    And now Google is blocking ad blocking extensions so that users are forced to see more google ads in their browser.

    Microsoft’s has leveraged their unfair advantage to get a little over 5% market share.

    Google’s leveraged their unfair advantage to get 66% of the market.

    Both companies need a hard smack down, but I want to see Google taken down too.

    • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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      The early versions of edge were absolutely terrible and didn’t support modern standards. I fully believe that YouTube didn’t work on Edge but I don’t believe it was anything to do with Google and everything to do with Microsoft not being able to build a web browser.

        • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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          What do you mean history disagrees with me? If you look at reviews of Microsoft edge when it released pretty much all of them talk about how it lacked compatibility with modern standards and was nowhere close to feature complete. Large parts of the HTML5 spec were missing, including any support for webm or ogg encoding.

    • lud@lemm.ee
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      20 hours ago

      Any source that YouTube is the reason that Edge switched to chromium?

      I’m betting it’s just cheaper and easier than making their own engine.

    • Demdaru@lemmy.world
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      Please, please do act on google too. Didn’t knew about YT thing, but god I loved Spartan Edge. It was soo…resource unintensive. It…simply did it job, was quick, low resource, looked good… :( I switched to it from chrome and then it became chrome.

      • Yi K@lemmy.world
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        YT does a lot of sneaky sneaky stuff. My Firefox constantly lagged on YT pages until one day I installed UserAgent-Switcher and pretended I was a Chrome. The lag went away.

        And no it doesn’t work now.

        • Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          3 hours ago

          Don’t have any of the switcher things ony my firefox deskrop and mobile.
          The only modifications I use are uBlock origin.

        • Kallioapina@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          4 hours ago

          Its working for me now, I tested it this morning. Even tried swithching the user agent back to Firefox and yep - Youtube gets magically some buffering problems with it.

          Close youtube tab, switch user agent back to chrome, clear cache and restart the browser: no buffering problems. What a bunch of assholes.

          I’ve reported this earlier to EU competition ombudsman, like a about a year ago, and they confirmed then that they were getting reports about the issue, Google of course denying the practice. Hopefully they are working on some punishment for Google in the background.

  • jaemo@sh.itjust.works
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    20 hours ago

    As it’s based on chromium, I’d call what it has a handicap and just keep on using Firefox.

    • tiny@midwest.social
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      The issue isn’t how it’s built or based on its that Microsoft can use its control of the os to make it extremely difficult to avoid it.

      • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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        5 hours ago

        Haven’t they been told they’ve got to stop doing that now?

        I thought the European commission had forced them to allow other browsers to actually use their own render engines

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      18 hours ago

      An out of the box OS should include a browser. Microsoft takes a ham-fisted approach, however, Apple makes it entirely possible to uninstall Safari. You do have to jump through the hoop of disabling System Integrity Protection to remove it, but it’s simple as trashing the app and deleting the data. I speak from experience. Very easy to do.

      • njordomir@lemmy.world
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        3 hours ago

        Seriously, showing a pop up confirmation if the user tries to uninstall the last browser on the device is all that is needed.

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      1 day ago

      It would be if Mac’s held the dominant market position for computers, yes.

        • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
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          5 hours ago

          Would not be Linux then? I’m pretty certain Mac OS isn’t even in the top three mostly because their os is tied to computers and their computers are stupidly expensive and only westerners can really afford them with any degree of regularity.

          • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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            59 minutes ago

            Not by market share on desktops in particular Western countries, no.

            In the world - yes, I’d expect there to be more Linux desktops really existing than MacOS desktops.

            Apple is the West in a nutshell, though. When a real need or a problem is mentioned, it’s mentioned only rarely as some selling point - like Jobs saying MacOSX is “very Linux-like” (sic). When a solution reaches reality, it’s done in a neutered way - like Apple still regularly releasing sources. When a real need is fulfilled, you can expect twice the effort to have been covertly spent on negating its effect - like with Apple’s “just works” and sterility and even privacy selling points, which come with walled gardens, closed APIs, short and bad support, and them actually still spying on you. A declaration of effort to tackle any problem existing in the wild is always aimed at portrayal of said effort to be persuasive enough to sell the product and the more efficient, the better, where efficiency means that actually doing anything other than persuasion is against the goal.

            See, the difference between market mechanisms and geopolitics is not in people deciding that there’ll be this set of rules here and that set of rules there. It’s due to structure. The bigger that structure makes companies, the more similar market dynamic and scientific&technical progress will be to geopolitics.

            Which is why I genuinely don’t understand people who frown at “techno-luddites” like me dreaming of going back to decentralized, even if with worse compatibility, hardware production and simpler software and formats. I would even say that some degree of protectionism from less developed countries would help, where hardware can be imported only if there’s domestic alternative production to match.

            I’m more on the libertarian side, but if in XIX century weapons ownership was widespread, and in XX century it stopped being such, because of one’s ability to kill much more people quickly, then the same with electronics would make sense by the same principle. Only the qualitative difference in power comes not with the device, but with the centralized production line it comes from.

            Of course, that’s not my proposition. It wouldn’t work.

            My proposition would be to try to design some “civilization minimized”, where sufficiently usable computers can be produced in an area of 100k people, with society, industry, communications and warfare approaches optimized for that limitation. That kind of limitation for a self-contained unit of civilization, so to say.

            So - one can buy a reasonably good laptop for 500$ today.

            What kind of laptop can one produce for that sum in a 100k people settlement? Is that even possible to make it close to 500$ in relative value?

            I’d expect we’d need to solve all heavy problems with specialized boards. I think lithography is actually applicable here - we don’t need it very precise, it’s far above our possibilities in such a hypothetical unit, and it would improve resource usage efficiency. And I think a more compact machine of PDP-11 level is possible, with specialized boards in Amiga ideology. I also think we can even have some kind of machine learning, but with analog storage of coefficients to reach anything close to sufficient efficiency. It would be a Fallout-kind computer, nothing fancy, but - possibly usable. For dedicated boards (some of which can, again, solve problems with analog approaches) there is a possibility of optronic elements being more accessible and energy-efficient.

            There’s a question of portability - one can expect lithium to just not be realistically available in any random area of the world populated by 100k people. I mean, trying to imagine some autarky …

            So maybe not a laptop, LOL.

            Nah. That’s bullshit. That won’t work. At least not every 100k people. Maybe every 10mln.

    • T156@lemmy.world
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      Yes, but they’ve got the advantage of having done it for longer, and not stirred the pot.

      I honestly don’t think it would have been an issue for Microsoft if they just decided to sit on Internet Explorer instead of trying to push everyone into using Edge.

  • ichbinjasokreativ@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    running “winget install firefox” in an elevated powershell gets you a better browser without ever opening edge. but then you still cannot uninstall it and all the other shit about it still stays active.

  • AbidanYre@lemmy.world
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    It’s like the mid 90s all over again. Let’s see if anything happens this time.

    • rottingleaf@lemmy.world
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      I want that Web to die, die, die.

      Gemini is a step in the right direction, but the new Web should be both non-extensible by design and transparently allow distributed storage, distributed untrusted computation, and separation of the concepts of a site and a machine that serves it. In other words, serverless, where websites and services and even web applications are identified cryptographically, and anybody can contribute their computing power (or storage) to a site\service\application, out of desire to help or for money. With smart contracts, ghost keys and other buzzwords I have no real idea about.

      And fuck Microsoft.

  • Thomas@discuss.tchncs.de
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    2 days ago

    Please submit a second copy of that letter, but replace Windows with Android, PC with Mobile, Microsoft with Google, and Edge with Chrome.

    • funkajunk@lemm.ee
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      Please submit a third copy of that letter, but replace Windows with iOS, PC with iPhone, Microsoft with Apple, and Edge with Safari.

  • vithigar@lemmy.ca
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    2 days ago

    As Edge comes pre-installed by default on Windows machines, users must navigate the Microsoft offering in order to download their browser of choice.

    What’s the actual alternative they want here? That users look up download URLs on other devices and download their browser of choice via command line using cURL Invoke-WebRequest? That ISPs provide browser installers on USB sticks?

    Also, it’s not like MS is cornering the market on browser share here. Even with this “unfair advantage” they’ve only scraped together a 5% slice of browser usage.

    • Rentlar@lemmy.ca
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      18 hours ago

      Invoke-WebRequest

      To comply with the court decision, Microsoft have added a super easy to use PowerShell command to install your favourite browser!

      ps> Get-Browser-That-Isnt-Microsoft-Edge -Q -Browser Firefox -NumberOfNags 0 -RevertAfterUpdate False -When Now -Why BecauseTheCourtsToldUsWeNeededTo

      • rmuk@feddit.uk
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        winget install -e --id Mozilla.Firefox --accept-package-agreements already works prefectly.

    • WhoIsRich@lemmy.world
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      For a while when you installed Windows, the first time user setup gave you a choice of popular browsers and it handled the download and install.

      Now Microsoft is actively trying to sabotage other browsers with popups and office apps bypassing the default browser setting.

    • WolfLink@sh.itjust.works
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      IMO edge coming pre-installed isn’t a big deal. But I’d like to be able to uninstall edge and not have Windows periodically try to trick me into setting edge as my default browser again.

    • CosmicTurtle0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      Basically either offer users a dialog box asking which browser they’d like to use or offer the browsers in the Microsoft Store.

      And stop telling me that “The Internet is better using Edge”, Microsoft.

    • Crashumbc@lemmy.world
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      I’d settle for them being force to offer links to alternatives when you first install Windows.

      AND being forced to stop the bullshit every few updates where they force you through choosing options. One of which is “update to recommended browser settings for security?”… Which just defaults the system to use edge.

      • JWBananas@lemmy.world
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        AND being forced to stop the bullshit every few updates where they force you through choosing options

        Just turn it off. Settings → Notifications → Windows Welcome Experience or some such.

    • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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      Require Microsoft to distribute competing browsers in the Microsoft store.

      I can install Firefox, Chromium etc. from my distro’s package manager. I don’t open a web browser to install software. You still do that on Windows because Microsoft has a financial incentive to keep competitors out of their store, so their store sucks.

      • Frodo@startrek.website
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        You can install Firefox from Windows’s package manager Winget with the command:

        winget install -e --id Mozilla.Firefox
        

        You don’t have to use the Store or Edge.

          • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
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            Exactly this. The point is not that there is no way to do it, the point is that the alternatives are obscure to limit adoption. It’s a dark pattern.

            This winget thing is worse than just using edge to download an alternative. The problem is not that people are forced to interact with a browser they dont like, it’s all the people who don’t know enough to understand that there are alternatives, and those people will never use winget.

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    I agree with going after the Edge Lords and making things more fair…but I’m guessing Chrome is the most used we browser by a long shot even on windows so the “No platform independent browser can aspire to match Edge’s unparalleled distribution advantage on Windows." part feels like users are comfortable stepping over Edge’s corpse to download chrome anyway.

    • myliltoehurts@lemm.ee
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      It’s true, although chrome has gotten a significant boost from Google promoting it in search and every Google app (which I don’t know if they still do).

      So chrome beats edge on users, but it’s also likely largely because of the unfair advantage it receives/received from that promotion. Those options are not really available to other browser developers (unless Amazon or meta also decided they want a browser for some reason).

      • qevlarr@lemmy.world
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        Chrome got popular at introduction because it was much faster at loading and displaying websites. Sure, there was a marketing push by Google, but it succeeded on the products merits and not some unfair business advantage. It still is a great browser.

        We do need antitrust protections but not always because consumers are getting a bad product. It’s more about the balance of power. Maybe their products are good now, or their business practices are fair now to other market actors, but you never know when that will change and then it’s too late. It’s like you need safeguards against autocracy also when they’re genuinely doing good job of running the country, because it’s never worth it in the long run when they inevitably start doing nasty shit

        • myliltoehurts@lemm.ee
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          Yes, chrome certainly had other merits too. Neither of us can say with certainty why it succeeded. Personally, I don’t think a crap browser pushed by Google would have but also an amazing browser pushed by an unknown independent developer would have either.

          Certainly agree with your 2nd point though.

    • tb_@lemmy.world
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      If users had a pop-up which allowed them to select more than just Edge or Chrome, other browsers may see an increase in users. Chrome is as much a default as Edge is in that way.

      • 2pt_perversion@lemmy.world
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        Again I’m in favor of choosing browsers on install, but lots of Chrome installs on Windows is not the same as being the default.

        So much so that you even get this annoying popup from Edge when you try to download Chrome with Edge - which should be against the rules imo.

        • tb_@lemmy.world
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          Sorry, I phrased that poorly. It is the default alternative, most users don’t bother to look for anything else.

          And Chrome also does pop-ups not unlike it when you visit Google websites on a non-Google browser.

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    1 day ago

    …and we all know what that advantage can do! (Covertly looks in IE’s direction)

      • A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
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        Yes, and its a nasty story thats all unofficial cause no one is ever gonna go on the record, at least not for another 10-20 years when it comes out in someones book…

        but the short of it is, Edge had its own browser engine, but google kept making changes to youtube and other google sites that broke Edges performance and made it run like dogshit, while leaving chromium based browsers alone.

        after many instances of sabotage > microsoft workaround > google sabotage> microsoft workaround. Microsoft finally gave up and remade Edge as a chromium based browser.

        • Wrench@lemmy.world
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          So Google establishing a now industry standard of evergreen versioning so that they could iterate relatively quickly on features, rather than have to maintain compatibility with years old versions, and iterating quickly on their own major websites - is a bad thing?

          Right.

          Yeah, let’s go back to having to maintain terrible legacy browsers that behaved completely differently for the rest of time.

          Edit - rofl. Bunch of revisionists here on Lemmy.

          https://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share#monthly-201001-202409

          EdgeHtml released 2015.

          But sure, Google has been doing shitty things lately so let’s retroactively change history and make Microsoft the browser hero? Right.

          • A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
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            ah yes, the google white knights. here to completely misconstrue the argument to make everyone but google the bad guy.

            because thats what a trillion dollar company that threatens to seize control of the internet needs.

            • Wrench@lemmy.world
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              Rofl. So let’s white wash the browser history before chrome, then. Back when IE reigned supreme. You must either be too young or not in the industry to champion that.

              • A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world
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                Dude. Seriously. Genuinely.

                Are you on drugs?

                Or are you the victim of a mental derangement?

                Because we need an explanation for this complete divorce from reality you seem to be suffering from.

          • h4lf8yte@lemmy.ml
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            2 days ago

            On “features” they would like to see. Most of the time features that make it difficult to block tracking and keep their advertising business going. The web is all about communication standards between different programs and this includes the joint adoption of new standards and respect for the existing standards.

            • Wrench@lemmy.world
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              And Google established a lot of the standards that were both open and long living.

              Yeah, Google has strayed far from the “Do no evil” philosophy in the last decade. But this rewriting of history to praise IE and demonfy Chrome from that era is ridiculous.

                • Wrench@lemmy.world
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                  Because we should wipe away 2 decades of history and pretend the next thing is flawless on release?

                  Edge came in with a freight train of baggage, and didn’t make it. It’s absurd to frame this otherwise.

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      It’s possible to go after both. M$ has some fucked up practices that trick the user into using edge that shouldn’t be okay

      • Mnemnosyne@sh.itjust.works
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        It’s possible to. Are they? Correct me if I’m wrong, but they’re not. They’re going after Microsoft and not Google.

        Not that it makes any difference since Edge is just reskinned Chrome now anyway. If it was still it’s own thing I’d be rooting for Microsoft, at least up until they start to become bigger, then I’d turn on them.

      • biggerbogboy@sh.itjust.works
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        I went to the widgets pane on my w11 laptop once, clicked an article and to my horror, all of my data had been synced from chrome to edge, including passwords, history, open tabs, extensions, pretty much everything.

        I even went as far as to report it to the ACCC (the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) since I’ve never seen it from other browsers, and that I found it pervy the fact they did it without consent, although I doubt the ACCC would be enough to change this shitty practice, and others like it.

        They’re not even trying to trick the user anymore, they’re forcing them.

          • biggerbogboy@sh.itjust.works
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            I agree, that has happened with other windows devices I’ve used recently (both w10 and 11), although this was completely reset, no data other than a chrome sign-in and a few games, this had also been the first time I opened edge, so I’m pretty confused how an opt in feature just magically stops requiring consent from the user…

    • WhatYouNeed@lemmy.world
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      Makes you wonder if these companies bringing the complaint are getting kickbacks from Google. Free search rank boosting for their respective companies comes to mind.

  • Pasta Dental@sh.itjust.works
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    Not to forget than when using bing, if you look for words like Firefox or Chrome, you get a large banner saying to use Edge instead. Super shady stuff

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      2 days ago

      Not to mention that Microsoft forces you to use a Microsoft account when you create your account on your home computer which is then automatically logged in to edge and *bing so that they can track and quantize more of every single thing you do on the internet to monetize you

      • one_knight_scripting@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        No it doesn’t. I just reinstalled Windows 11 pro and I’m running without a Microsoft account.

        Edit: I was unfamiliar with how different that is from the home experience. I’m still using Windows 7 keys to install Windows 11 so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ consider me out of the loop.

        • scutiger@lemmy.world
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          2 days ago

          Home versions, which most home users have, force the use of MS accounts. They’ve patched the bypass tricks that people used before.

          • one_knight_scripting@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            Ah. Did not realize this was an issue with home. I can not say I experienced that. Hell, I still use Windows 7 pro keys to activate Windows 11.

            Do you know if you could use audit mode to bypass OOBE and get around it? Simply curious.

          • horrorslice@lemmy.zip
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            2 days ago

            I do a workaround when installing/setting up Windows on others PCs. Use my dummy MS account -> create local user -> change to admin -> delete out the MS account. Boom, then only the local account is on the PC.

            • bizarroland@fedia.io
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              2 days ago

              I’m willing to bet you’re still ending up in their database. Unless you are using some sort of VPN to first obfuscate your location and then a brand new account that has not been used before, then there’s going to be some record of similarity.

              When I’m installing Windows 10 or 11, I use the Rufus installer to create a pre-built admin account that I can sign in with.

              • horrorslice@lemmy.zip
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                2 days ago

                That’s a good point, and a good idea about modifying the installer. I will give this a shot next time I have to do a reinstall. Thanks!

        • kurcatovium@lemm.ee
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          2 days ago

          Well, it is impossible to install W11 Pro without MS account for normal person. Sure tech people can do it after couple seconds of web search, but your average PC user? Nope. No way.

        • bizarroland@fedia.io
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          2 days ago

          Oh yeah?

          Open edge and search for something. Check in the top right corner and tell me you’re not signed into some sort of pseudo-created Microsoft account.

    • Aedis@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      This doesn’t make that behavior any less scummy, but have you tried using any Google website on a browser that isn’t chrome?

      • Pasta Dental@sh.itjust.works
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        1 day ago

        It’s possible, I use Firefox and uBO as well on my main PC, but I remember seeing it when installing Firefox on my windows partition