Lebanon’s health minister has said what is happening in his country is “carnage”, as hospitals struggle to cope with the number of casualties from two days of widespread Israeli air strikes targeting the armed group Hezbollah.
Dr Firass Abiad told the BBC it was “clear” that many of the 550 people killed in Monday’s attacks were civilians, including children and women.
I’m voting party for Socialism and Liberation in November and you can too.
They’re running on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to Israel.
No word on their position with regard to Israel’s war with Lebanon, but I’m confident it’s one that I’ll support.
If it didn’t have negative repercussions for others I would encourage you and then laugh in your face when Trump wins.
But since it does have repercussions for others:
Please don’t actually do that. I know that your voting system is unsatisfying and I know that you don’t want to participate in it anymore. I know that the large parties are profitting from it disproportionately and people are forced to vote for people that they don’t really want in power, just to stop someone else.
I understand all that. But please also understand that the stakes of these Elections could be the highest stakes of any election during your lifetime.
I understand that this is unsatisfying and undesirable. But please, like often said, “don’t waste your vote”. I just want to give you a small annectote: Pacifists are always noble. They always deserve to be praised. But that doesn’t mean that they’re always doing the right thing. Hitler was very fond of french, russian and US-American pacifists.
I don’t think that you’re a fascist. But I do know that you’re doing exactly what the fascists want you to do.
Sorry for the late response. Disasters happen!
I will not vote for the democrats and no argument will convince me.
I do want to participate in the electoral system and am not forced to vote for people or parties I have no interest in.
You aren’t going to convince anyone with the most important election rhetoric. If a person isn’t already saying it along with you then they’ll be driven away by those words.
I’m not throwing away my vote. It’ll be counted just like all the others. I know this from being involved in the process of elections.
I’m not concerned with what the fascist want.
If the democrats want my vote they can adopt a platform I support, actively pursue it to some real material ends and maybe I’ll cast a ballot for them in two years or four years.
P.S:
The hurricane?
I hope you and your surroundings are safe. I wish you the best, from Switzerland.
Yeah it was crazy.
I’m not concerned with what the fascist want.
As someone from Switzerland, whose continent has suffered under fascism:
I will pray for you and your country. I will pray that fascism may not ravage and rape your country and society like it did with ours
Nice job trumpist
Hey, in case you’re not familiar with it, the Party for Socialism and Liberation is a communist party, not some right wing formation like the tea party or whatever.
So nothing about my support for that party would make me a supporter of trump.
A vote for a third party is a completely wasted vote, so most assume that anyone actively encouraging people to waste their vote are doing it as a spoiler to have Trump win.
I think these people forget that almost all votes in the U.S. system are completely wasted, so if you already live in one of those many areas you can absolutely make a protest vote for your conscience.
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Hey let’s vote for the lady whose party wants to sell Israel more weapons!
And the other party won’t?
Exactly, so don’t vote
That’s why I vote
That’ll fix it!
Facts:
- Either Donald or Kamala is going to be elected, unless something really bad happens.
- Neither candidate is great or even good. But one of the candidates is WAY worse.
- In our FPTP system, not voting is exactly the same as voting for the candidate you want less.
- Accelerationism is bad. Vote for the least bad candidate and keep pressuring local and state representatives for RCV.
Fact: Joe Biden is the current president and the one allowing this to happen by supplying the weapons to enable the Israeli escalation
Sure, doesn’t impact any of my points though
It wasn’t supposed to. I just didn’t want this key fact to be scrubbed from understanding the situation.
Ok, I apologize for my tone, I fully agree otherwise
No worries, it’s a tense situation that most of us are unhappy about. The gaslighting and whitewashing of the situation by the current administration is something I believe that needs to be called out and challenged. It’s all a hot mess but we should always demand better from those with the power to make change
Not voting for is the best strategy. If everyone who was dissatisfied would stop voting, there would be more progress than continuing to choose the “lesser of two evils” (who happily enable and cheer for genocide, BTW)
That is one of the stupidest takes I have ever seen, and I’ve been on the internet since AOL chatrooms.
Not voting makes politicians less accountable to you. If you somehow organized everyone who thought like you do, regardless of your agenda, and convinced every single one of them to not vote, then you would achieve the lofty political goal of… absolutely ensuring that no politician would ever try to pursue your goals.
Voting, by definition, is what makes politicians give a shit about your cause. There’s a reason why the Greek word meaning “one who does not take part in public affairs” is the root of the modern word “idiot.”
Removed by mod
I wish anybody would pay me!
If enough people stop voting it would force the government to legitimize itself. It would show how many people are actually dissatisfied and empower all of us. It could lead to more people refusing to vote in future, further eroding the appearance of legitimacy of the current arrangement
it would force the government to legitimize itself
LOL, no. It wouldn’t force the government to do anything.
Since you’ve never seen a ballot, try googling one. You’ll see a bunch of downballot races in which very few people vote. Those races all have winners, and those winners always have and always will give zero fucks about legitimizing themselves to nonvoters.
OK then it sounds like voting and not voting have the same result so why should I bother?
It’s not the same result. Politicians have to appeal to voters, they are free to ignore nonvoters.
If you’re not voting, then you’re not voting for Trump as well as not voting for Harris. Are you surprised that Trump isn’t courting your vote? You shouldn’t be.
But Harris has no more reason to court your vote than Trump does. You’re a nonvoter, so they are both ignoring you.
This is just incorrect mathematically. I get the argument - in foreign policy both parties ARE fascists. But they are not equal. Especially internally they are not. But there is a huge difference in ideology between liberals and fascists, and one of them is much worse, and much harder for revolution or reform.
I believe there are only two reasons for your position: 1. is you stick to principles absolutely, refusing to acknowledge the consequences of your actions - which is wrong and stupid. 2. You believe in accelerationism and believe Trump leading to collapse of the US empire faster is the better outcome.
Neither has to do with ideology. I’d love someone to explain how an actual fascism is a better outcome than a neoliberalism or “capitalism-in-decline” fascism. This is simply about outcome and using the little power we have.
Another consequence of this tactic of arguing for not-voting is that it creates a rift between mainstream and socialists or “tankies”. The actual fascists love that.
Liberals are fascists 🤷
Well, I believe the marxist-leninist definition of liberalism and “fascism is capitalism in decline” just means that everyone not calling for the overthrow of capitalism is a fascist. I don’t find those definitions that helpful. And it doesn’t really tell you how you should use your limited political power.
But I do understand arab americans who just can’t bring themselves to vote for democrats. So there would be a reason 3. you’re just so revolted and you just can’t stand the disgusting feeling of supporting them.
For example Jake Tapper just spread racist lies about Tlaib. Tlaib criticized the Michigan US attorney office for prosecuting and showing biases against Pro-Palestinian Protesters (including Jewish protesters). Now they are smearing her as anti-semitic. CNN Hosts BUSTED Manufacturing Quote To Smear Democrat
“The best strategy is to stay silent on Gaza. Because if everyone is silent on Gaza, then politicians would be forced to ask us: Hey, what are you thinking about Gaza?”
Of course the Silent Treatment strategy won’t work. Refusing to vote is the same strategy.
OK well tell me about Michigan Arabs and how much power they are holding in this election.
If not voting is so powerless then why are you all so upset about the idea of people not voting?
Let’s elect the old man that barrages AI slop and all caps posts on his socials eighty times a day
I won’t vote at all
Trump winning would be hilarious though, watching liberals melt down after justifying genocide for a year
Not participating in your own governance is the worst idea imaginable. I’d rather someone vote third party than proudly not voting at all tbh. Theres some socialists on some ballots that could use your tally for their numbers games at the very least.
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Voting is the easiest, least frequent form of participating in democracy
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Not voting is a valid democratic choice until they give us a choice that includes “none of the above” on every ballot race
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It’s not on me, it’s on the candidates and parties to court my vote. They don’t even bother 🤷
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Not voting gets to systemic change. Voting tells the system that you’re satisfied with its current form
Complete backwards logic in an electoral democacry. You must vote. If you only show up to vote for president and you aren’t fist fucking your local elections like its going out of style (by your comment it seems to be) then you aren’t participating in your own governance and allowing others to decide for you. Not voting is how we got here, because that allows unpopular people and ideas the privilege of no competition. Not voting is how you get your rights taken away.
Address each point?
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You MUST NOT vote. If you don’t like the choice then you have freedom to abstain
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You can vote in local elections and abstain from races in which you don’t like the choices. I firmly believe we need “none of the above” on all ballot races
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Participation in government is not only limited to voting. See my Point 1 in the previous comment. If anything, insistence on voting as the be-all-end-all allows people to ignore the actual hard work of democratic responsibilities
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“unpopular ideas get no competition” is logically false. If both choices are unpopular or unsatisfactory, the ideas are competing against the threat of losing the race due to apathetic voters
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What rights have ever been gained by voting? In the US, pretty much every positive social and legislative change came via collective direct organization and action and/or threat of violence (if not actual violence).
Your talking points are tired, illogical, and smack of received wisdom rather than coming from a deliberately thought-out set of ideas and understanding of the world.
I ask you this: How do you know I will vote how you want me to vote?
I dont. But you should partake in your government. I’m not answering all your points. Go ahead and dont vote. But dont go around convincing people that the only way to win is not to play. Thats exactly how you surrender in this sort of system. You can propose shit and get it ratified as well, but abstaining from voting in elections outside of party primaries as a protest means nothing when most of the country doesnt do it anyway.
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It’s not on me, it’s on the candidates and parties to court my vote.
You completely misunderstand politics.
Voters aren’t consumers. Politicians aren’t companies trying to maximize market share. All they need is 51% of the people who actually vote. If you don’t vote, then you literally aren’t part of the equation.
“It’s on parties to court my vote” is like “It’s on Starbucks to court my filling out a comment card”. Starbucks doesn’t care at all if you fill out a comment card or not. They just want the people who do fill them out to write positive comments.
This is totally illogical and you know it. And your Starbucks gift card “metaphor” is a complete false equivalence.
Why do parties run campaigns if their job isn’t convince voters? Billions of dollars and endless hours of research are spent courting votes but you say it’s not their job and they don’t care? Wha???
Yes, their job is to convince voters. The people who will actually vote. They are not trying to convince nonvoters. Nonvoters don’t matter.
How many Harris campaign commercials are playing in Paris? Zero, because Parisians can’t vote. Harris isn’t trying to court Parisians, and for the exact same reason she isn’t courting American nonvoters. You’ve been written off as irrelevant to this election.
Astoundingly dumb, I mean it’s actually a bit remarkable.
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On the bright side, liberals would finally oppose the genocide!
🤔🤔🤔
And what is your proposed solution?
Pointing out the obvious problem without proposing a solution is a giant waste of everyone’s time.
Oh just fuck all the way off with this bullshit, you absolute fucking child.
Are you angry because they are right? Neither Kamala nor Trump plan to stop the weapon shipments and support for Israel.
No, try again.
Then why are you angry?
Because I’m tired of reading shit takes by people who are either getting paid to post their nonsense or are so fucking stupid that they’re doing it for free.
How is what they said nonsense? The facts stand - Kamala won’t stop arms shipment to Israel, and the support for Israeli government. Democrats endorse her and what currently is happening. Palestinian speakers are turned away at the democratic convention.
Going “but Trumpf!” is whataboutism and nothing more. Kamala deserves all the shit she gets for policies that directly lead to more death and more war.
Going “but Trumpf!” is whataboutism and nothing more.
That’s where we disagree. Others have explained this already, if you don’t get it that’s on you.
Would you rather I stop posting here and vote for Trump instead?
Is genocide OK because Biden and then kamala Harris will be letting it happen?
You don’t like being reminded that you are going to vote for genocide enablers?
Who’s the child???
How does it feel to be a tool? A useful idiot for people who want to destroy your way of life?
Look how angry you are at a stranger on the internet! 😂
So angry that I had to go back to the parent comment to even see what the fuck you were talking about 🙄
Really makes you feel a part of history
Unironically this.
Because it is the only possible outcome this November that won’t directly lead to the mass extermination of the Palestinian people, and the possible beginning of a third World War, of which, we are clearly on the wrong side.
Hey, let’s consider more than a single issue.
If Democrats see Gazan children as totally expendable, what makes you think they see anybody else differently?
And Republicans don’t? They’re seen as a commodity by Republicans and one they aren’t willing to invest in hence every argument being about money at heart.
Politicians see Gaza as relatively unimportant because American voters generally see Gaza as relatively unimportant. Poll after poll shows that voters are far more interested in affordable housing and women’s rights. And by “voters” I mean the people who will actually vote, so that doesn’t include you.
When voters think Gaza is more important than affordable housing and women’s rights, politicians will too.
You don’t care about anyone in Gaza. If you did, you would stop being so fucking obtuse and accept that what you are doing is directly contributing to a possible Trump victory. An outcome that will mean literal extinction of the Palestinian people.
And I don’t mean these “is it or is it not genocide? I don’t know! 😉” games. You’re gonna find out real quick what extermination of an entire ethnic group actually means, and by posting shit like this you are directly contributing to that outcome.
And you’re gonna have to live with that.
(All of this is giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are actually a real person who wants to end the genocide but are simply misguided about how elections work in the US)
OK so I should vote for the people who quietly stand by and let weapon manufacturers profit from genocide? Who now Israel invade Lebanon? They are so ethical and deserving of my vote.
How do you even know Trump would cause extinction of Palestinians??? That’s pure speculation while the current people in power are actually letting war crimes happen
How do you even know Trump would cause extinction of Palestinians
Yeah dude only one way to find out, right?
You are a fucking fool.
Meanwhile the US just gave an 8.7bn dollar package to Israel to continue killing Gazan and now Lebanese children with terror methods like the pager attack.
But Trump will somehow be worse? So I should support the people who are complicit in what’s going on now?
No I refuse
Yeah. We know you do, bud.
Kamala has openly stated in the debate that she believes the only way is a two-state solution. Whether that’s realistic or not, it’s a pretty strong statement, and there’s some hope on the horizon. Unless until she actually gets to do anything, da Joe will sleep through the conflict turning into the entire region being nuked to the ground by the IDF.
Fix your fuckin democracy already instead of posting trump bad memes on lemmy.
She said that but then she had a private meeting with Netanyahu. She is a coward who didn’t show up the day he was addressing Congress so that she wouldn’t have to be seen clapping for him
If Dems lose this election (they probably won’t) it would be in large part because of her party’s cowardly stance on the Palestine issue and continuing fealty to Israel.
