The animating concept behind the Trump campaign will be chaos. This is what history shows us fascists do when given the chance to participate in democratic political campaigns: They create chaos. They do it because chaos works to their advantage. They revel in it, because they can see how profoundly chaos unnerves democratic-republicans—everyone, that is, whether liberal or conservative, who believes in the basic idea of a representative government that is built around neutral rules. Fascism exists to pulverize neutral rules.
So they campaign with explicit intention to instill a sense of chaos. And then comes the topper: They have the audacity to insist that the only solution to the chaos—that they themselves have either grossly exaggerated or in some cases created!—is to vote for them: “You see, there is nothing but chaos afoot, and only we can restore order!”
Whatever. I’m voting D no matter what, for every election, because republicans are disgusting traitor filth.
I don’t consider myself a Democrat, but in this two-horse race, I vote Democrat because, as my father was fond of saying and said as far back as at least the Reagan era, “the worst Democrat is better than the best Republican.” Sad but true. I’d rather have a senate of Bob Menendezes and lose Susan Collins in the mix. Menendez is a corrupt bastard, but at least he votes as if he gives a shit about other people. Collins tries to sound reasonable and fair and then votes in lockstep with the rest of the Republicans most of the time anyway.
Lol yeah I remember when I used to consider positions, evaluate the candidates, check historical records etc. GOP has made this very easy the last few years because “fuck women, gays, immigrants and the disabled. Science is fake, Jan 6 is fake, covid is fake, trump is a saint and the rich need more help”.
Wow what a winning platform. ☑️ D
I used to be an Independent voter. I’d consider reasonable Democrats and Republicans alike. No more. Dems down the ballot for me.
Same but I primary whenever I can for candidates that even entertain being progressive. Anyone who want to stop the plutocracy, treat our planet like we need it, or will act with empathy.
Too many people can’t bear conscience for voting for someone actively abetting a genocide. A lot are boting 3rd party this year, so the vote’s split
Cool. Vote third party. We’ll get Trump (or one of the other authoritarian dominionist clowns in the car), who will end up pushing for a nuclear attack on Gaza while dismantling every institution we have here, meager as they are, but people still need them. Then in 2028, don’t vote at all because you will probably lose your right to do so. At least you voted with your heart<3 though, so have a nice cup of tea and give yourself a hug.
We do not have a system in place where your idealistic protest can do anything other than make things worse. Fix the goddamn system, put people in power on a local level who have a chance, and work up from there. Fuck outta here with any Jill Stein horseshit.
Cool. Vote third party. We’ll get Trump
If not voting Biden is a vote for Trump, wouldn’t not voting Trump be a vote for Biden by the same logic? The logic only works if you assume all third party voters would be voting Democrat which isn’t the case.
You know what I’m talking about. Of course not all third party voters would vote for the Democratic candidate, but how many leftists would otherwise vote for the Republican? I reeeally doubt these people are stumping for the American Freedom or Constitution candidates.
Of course not all third party voters would vote for the Democratic candidate, but how many leftists would otherwise vote for the Republican
Trump arguably won in 2016 because of the 13% of Obama-Trump voters, Bernie-Trump supporters are also a thing, and not all Trump voters are politically engaged people as aren’t many Democrats, and only about 66% of eligible Americans voted, with lowest rates in the 50s-low 60s being red states. A third party wouldn’t necessarily only “steal” Democrat voters because this isn’t a closed system with one option. The logic I presented there is perfectly valid because not everyone is a leftist, for “not voting Biden is a vote for Trump” to work you have to ignore a bunch of voters and potential voters. It’s just something people say online for people to say “yes” to that has no relevance or impact on material politics at all.
I’m referring specifically to actual politically engaged people who refuse to vote for Biden because he isn’t progressive enough. Also, as I have not addressed it, I do get why they do refuse, as he would not be my first choice either, and I absolutely agree that Biden (and most democrats, tbh) needs to reach out to these voters because the base is more progressive than is reflected in their representation. I was aware of Bernie-Trump voters but, beyond their disdain for the mainstream party politicians, I do not understand their motives; however, I will read up on it because it so baffles me.
I do hope that you’re right about this; being a mediocre white guy, I am not really in any danger of the fallout of a Trump presidency beyond what it would mean for all of us, but I don’t want to see more of what happened to marginalized people during his administration, as I fully expect things to be even worse if he gets in, just out of spite and due to redhats becoming even more deeply emboldened to act out. Not that they won’t act out otherwise, but I expect them to see themselves as self-appointed enforcers.
Cool. Vote third party. We’ll get Trump
Isn’t Trump’s victory predicated on an electoral college victory?
How does voting third party impact whether or not your state’s electors vote for Donald Trump?
We do not have a system in place where your idealistic protest can do anything other than make things worse.
Sure we do. Look at the very origins of the Republican Party. Abraham Lincoln emerged as the frontrunner against a Whig Party that was in full collapse. It was only possible thanks to Freemont’s break from the Whigs in 1856, galvenizing abolitionists into a full formal partisan block.
Or consider the Farmer-Laborer party of North Dakota, which controlled the state for several decades before merging with the Democrats under Roosevelt.
Or consider the rise of Libertarian, Socialist, and Fascist candidates within the major parties. Primary insurgency candidates will routinely build a base of non-partisan support before joining the major parties as outsiders. Sanders ran as an Indie from Vermont for 14 years, before stepping up to run for President in 2016. Donald Trump himself was a Reform Party candidate in 2000 and was a staunch Democratic mega-donor/bundler in New York well, before defecting the GOP in 2012. Senators like Mike Lee and Rand Paul built their brands outside the party system before winning primaries in their respective branches.
The split in the Dem Party in '68 gave rise to Nixon and Reagan’s Southern Strategy, which secured the Presidency for the GOP (with the exception of the narrow Carter win in '76) for the next 24 years. Great news for Dixiecrats who cared more about maintaining racial supremacy than New Deal economics and who found a way to profit handsomely from Reagan-Era giveaways to large land owners and shareholders.
Third Party campaigns have a long and proud history in the US of paving the way for more successful general election runs in subsequent election cycles. They don’t always pay off year-of, but they can have a seismic effect on politics going on decades afterwards.
Isn’t Trump’s victory predicated on an electoral college victory?
It doesn’t have to be. If there are enough splits to deny any candidate an outright majority in the EC, the task of choosing a president falls to the congress in the ‘contingent election’ procedure, whereby state congressional delegations each have 1 vote. If 26 states have republican delegations (which seems plausible, given how many states are controlled by the gop) it’s very likely Trump wins if it goes to a contingent election.
If anything, this supports the argument against voting 3rd party protest votes in any FPTP election
If there are enough splits to deny any candidate an outright majority in the EC, the task of choosing a president falls to the congress
Well, double damn then. I’m in a heavily gerrymandered house seat so now my vote extra doesn’t matter.
it’s very likely Trump wins if it goes to a contingent election.
That’s heavily predicated on how midwestern states manage their house seats in the next election. Pennsylvania’s forced redrawing of maps in 2018 flipped five or six house seats. Wisconsin and Michigan redistricting fights could cost as many more, each. Dems are within range of the House (barring another landslide swing like in 2010 or 2018) if too many of these break the Dems’ way. And now that Dems appear more focused on winning state SCOTUS elections, that’s not inconceivable.
If anything, this supports the argument against voting 3rd party protest votes
I’m guessing you’re not a Lieberman 2008 guy. And who can blame you?
But folks with sufficiently high name recognition can definitely win third party. Just ask Lisa Murkowski. Or Jesse Ventura, for that matter.
Vote third party. We’ll get Trump
i don’t think so. i voted for howie in 2020 and we got biden.
With donnie in power, we may very well have genocide in our borders.
Part of the problem with the Biden Administration (and Obama before him) is that it seems content to allow guys like Abbott and DeSantis to Do As Thou Wilt in their respective states. Biden could win reelection in '24 and we’d still see a genocide of border people, entirely because his administration is unwilling to pick a fight with a powerful governor in a state flush with heavily armed state border guards.
Uhh have you seen your borders the last… America’s entire history
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I think the logic here is that Biden, while endorsing genocide outside of the U.S., isn’t causing it inside of the borders. With Trump you’d have it both outside and inside.
Ergo, they see the choice as less genocide or more genocide. Both terrible but why choose more over less?
Blessed be the day we can vote for no genocide.
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Here is why you should never vote third party in a FPTP voting system. If you are not happy with your candidate choices, then we need to increase voter turnout in local elections, mid terms, and most importantly, primary elections. Primary elections are where you actually can change the spirit of the political parties, but hardly anyone votes in primaries despite them being arguably the most important.
I think the problem is that third parties are thinking too big. You can’t just rival the Democrats or Republicans on a national level overnight.
Let’s say hypothetically, one state becomes disillusioned with the mainstream parties and a third secessionist party starts making headway in mayoral and state elections, soon winning over the people.
If it’s a big state like Texas, that’s well over a hundred electoral college votes lost for the Republicans.
It’s funny. It’s already election year and you can’t even name a 3rd Party candidate with any sort of shot. But yes, some perfect candidate will declare in late September, right?
I’m tired of every election being the most important election. I want politics to be boring again, less evil too if possible.
If politics were ever boring or less evil, it’s because you weren’t paying attention or engaged. Every upcoming election will always be the most important. Simply because all the others have happened, and the remainder are too far off and nebulous.
Ask all the people suppressed, attacked, and assassinated in the 50s and 60s fighting for civil rights. All the ones since then too. It didn’t magically become perfect. Or all the people brutalized by robber barons before as they fought for unions, weekends, reasonable hours, and basic safety.
Being disengaged from politics is a luxury and a privilege that most people can’t afford. Which explains why we’re in such a deficit. With so much of the American population chomping at the bit for fascism again. And much of the rest of the world close behind. Putin in Russia, Orban in Hungary, Milieu in Argentina, etc etc etc. We’ve been asleep at the wheel, enabling the worst people among us.
You landed in the wrong timeline.
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Republicans are pushing for fascism, and Democrats like not having to do anything but be second worst to fascists.
It might be a few elections before that happens. There’s political turmoil and fascists have a chance so they’re gonna keep going for it until republicans understand they cannot possibly win anything with fascism
I… I just want to get back to the days when the internet kept our attention with porn and stupid browser games… is that so much to ask!? Is it so terrible to expect congress to be no more exciting and no less humane than any other day at any other workplace??
Yeah the problem is that wide reaching policy changes is hard to sell on a country wide scale
Are the Democrats EVER prepared though?
“I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat.” - Will Rogers, 1879-1935
“Democrats never agree on anything, that’s why they’re Democrats. If they agreed with each other, they’d be Republicans.” - Will Rogers, 1879-1935
1879-1935
TIL you guys have been stuck with the same two political parties since the 1850s. No wonder they’ve gone a bit corrupt.
To be fair, the parties themselves have changed significantly since then.
To be fair, no two-party system is a healthy democracy, and the way our elections are designed it’ll stay that way.
Which means, get worse
Yep, as it has been since the 1850s
Yep, as it has been since the 1850s
since the 1850s
Yeahhh, you may find some people disagree with you on that one. I hear some stuff happened in 1861-1865 or something, for example.
Our election system is generally bad. Elections aren’t controlled by the federal government, even for federal elections, they are run by counties (or whatever the locality calls a county - in Louisiana they are parishes) and each county runs their elections differently unless the state steps in and regulates it. Some states have mail in voting, some make you stand in line on election day. Some counties have FPTP voting, others might have STAR or RCV.
The only way I see things changing at all are two fold: publicly funded elections with no private money at all AND abandoning FPTP voting for a broader method with an added benefit of potentially eliminating primaries. I know parties would complain, but things would be much more democratic.
This is entirely correct. The only way to heal the nation is to take steps forward, not relying on an archaic system that ‘works’ and building out something that actually works.
We won’t get rid of FPTP or gerrymandering so long as we elect our representatives from geographically defines districts. We should empanel state congressional delegations in statewide elections, rather than by districts.
In a state with 20 congressional seats, any party that wins at least 5% of the vote should have a seat. A party that wins 10% of the vote should have 2 seats.
America’s founders biggest fear were political factions forming. But when they were concerned the voters were all landowning men, how could people with shared economic interests ever form factions?
That’s what happens with a first past the post voting system. A ranked choice would open things up quite a bit, but that would require the people elected by the first past the post voting system to change it or mass revolution.
Someone call the French and let them know we actually do need them again.
Americans are perfectly capable of manufacturing guillotines domestically.
It must be a proportional system. No other system produces viable 3rd parties.
No other system produces viable 3rd parties.
American’s lack of knowledge about Canada never ceases to amaze me.
Canada has effectively the same system as the UK, both being based on fptp, are you suggesting that fptp is fine in a preliminary system?
I’ve campaigned for an NDP candidate who was against fptp as many of us are, even our current PM ran on replacing fptp which never happened of course… however we have more than 2 “viable” parties despite not having proportional representation. You can apply definitions to “viable” at your will but they have won provinces quite recently and have many seats in federal and provincial government.
God damn it. It’s been true that long?
It’s almost like individual people have different opinions and want different things.
…yeah…but also, we all need to want Republicans to lose spectacularly.
It increasingly feels like that’s the single unifying trait holding the democratic party together. That’s the sole reason you see people telling everyone to get out and vote.
It’s not “We need to get young people to vote because they care about progressive policies, and we can elect a candidate who will align with their views”, it’s “We need to get young people to vote because we can’t let Trump win another term.”
The Democrats are actually way more internally organized now. About 30 years ago during the 90s both parties reached almost unanimous internal ideological consensus’ and essentially all vote as a single blocks. The state we’re in now with this polarization is part of this, and an example of the increased factionalization of US politics.
It’s crazy to think how there were staunch segregationist Democrats in to the 70s even as the party as a whole had been (successfully) catering to younger urban demographics that came alongside industrialization. We can’t really imagine something like that occurring now. Even Biden was opposed to bussing and a lot of his “across the aisle” examples even today involve working with segregationist Democrats, not “across the aisle” as we interpret it now.
I actually like that about the Democrat Party. Shows how ideologically diverse it is because tolerance is a bedrock of the party ever since the two parties switched from being conservative and liberal. The GOP flipped within four years from being neocons to isolationists, and anyone who disagrees with the current identity is a RINO
"Ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right when it affects them personally.’ - Phil Ochs, 1966
Democrats and Republicans swapped ideologies and beliefs around 1936
This has been the Republican Party’s M.O. for decades.
“Government is corrupt and ineffective, elect us and we’ll prove it to you!”
That’s 11 months for heart disease to do the world a favor and get itself some good PR for once.
I really wish Biden would step down. I’d love a better option from the Dems. That said, no way in hell am I voting for Trump.
I really wish Biden would step down. I’d love a better option from the Dems.
glances at Kamala Harris
sighs
Biden is safe, and honestly the best frontrunner we have.
I disagree. An 80 year old is not the best option we have.
Certainly the best option who’s running though
If the democrats were prepared Biden wouldn’t be on the ballot
He’s the incumbent. The last incumbents to not be reelected were Trump and HW Bush. Tell me again why Biden is unelectable.
Because Biden is a lot closer to HW Bush than he is to Obama. One of the reasons he got the nod in the first place was his promise not to run for re-election. And where we are now is why.
Biden specifically said he would not promise to serve one term.
Oh bullshit he said that once while telling everyone around him that he was a one term president. And he continually referred to himself as a transition president or a stopgap bridge to the next generation.
The message was received by voters.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/11/biden-single-term-082129
Another top Biden adviser put it this way: “He’s going into this thinking, ‘I want to find a running mate I can turn things over to after four years but if that’s not possible or doesn’t happen then I’ll run for reelection.’ But he’s not going to publicly make a one term pledge.”
…
A top Biden adviser said Biden ruled out a one-term pledge when the issue was raised before he even entered the race. “He said it was a nonstarter,” the adviser said, adding that Biden believed it was a “gimmick.”
…
In April [2019], when asked whether he would serve just one term, Biden responded, “No.” More recently, Biden has been ambiguous. In October, The Associated Press reported that when “asked whether he would pledge to only serve one term if elected, Biden said he wouldn’t make such a promise but noted he wasn’t necessarily committed to seeking a second term if elected in 2020.”
How about we get a president that isn’t over 70 and doesn’t require uppers to function, like biden, or literal adult diapers, like trump.
Both options are garbage and both men need to retire.
The last incumbents to not be reelected were Trump and HW Bush.
Funny that you didn’t mention Carter.
Last 40 years not good enough? Even with Carter the odds are better for the incumbent.
Oh it’s not that, it’s just there is so few presidents that didn’t win their second election, and you listed all of them except one particular democrat, is all.
People don’t think he does enough. And “his son”. Basically it’s to just be edgy. Dude has taken a shit show and make it resemble an office again.
Democrats still don’t know who they will be running against - since the polling needed to determine that are not “likely Iowa caucus goers” but “likely Trump jurors”. We don’t want to be like the Republicans in 2008 who were completely prepared to take on and tear down a Hilary Clinton nominee, only to find themselves fighting Obama.
If the Republican nominee is anyone but Trump, we’ll see Trump run as an independent and split the vote.
🤞🏻
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I would hate to see how that voter turnout would affect all the downballot elections.
Gods know I’m not ready for another American election.
You and me, both.
A lot of wackos around the world have been winning elections, so we shall see.
There is no saving America, there’s only buying time. Democrats can’t do what’s needed to prevent fascism because actually doing something about the Republican party would risk creating actual democracy. Prepare to fight fascism now because at best you’re buying yourself another 4 years. Vote, don’t vote, vote for a third party out of protest, whatever you do organize with other people and prepare for the worst.
In the best case, I’m wrong and you’ve made new friends. But if you don’t organize now it will be too late to organize in the worst case.
I wouldn’t be surprised if more vicious rhetoric has been used in past elections, at least one candidate in pre-Civil War America was called a “hermaphrodite”, but the inevitable use of AI is going to make the election an absolute circus. L
The world will be looking at you. Don’t fuck this up USA
Too late.
Too late. We’ve already normalized fascism.
Fascism makes people turn on the tv, so every national news network actively did that for the profit of it.
Meet the new year, same as the old year.
Please, for the love of God; if it’s a state where Biden is guaranteed, then vote third party or whatever alternative dumbass you want. If it’s a swing state, it’s your god damned duty to vote for Biden. I don’t like the AID he’s providing Israel but he’s not dropping the fucking bombs.
We don’t need to spit in the face of our constitution to prove a point. We don’t need to tank the work he’s done getting the country back on track so you can feel morally superior. We don’t need another bad year of COVID just because your friends are saying “Biden bad”. Your friends are retarded and so are you.
Normally I don’t give a shit what you liberal idiots do but this is seriously going to affect us in the real world. It’s not your reddit and lemmy echo chambers out here so please tighten the fuck up.
Or tell us of a viable, alternative candidate with over a 90% chance of winning. Oh you don’t have one? Then please shut the fuck up and vote Biden.
Agree basically but why use slur?
It’s BIDENS BOMBS being dropped from BIDENS AIRPLANES. The fact that the pilot is israeli would only matter if Biden STOPPED SENDING THEM MORE BOMBS AND AIRPLANES.
Genocide Joe has got to go!
