I’m anti-genocide. If Israel were to stop the genocide and prosecute the perpetrators, then I wouldn’t have a problem with Israel. I’m anti-terrorism, too. If Hamas were to lay down arms and commit to a peaceful negotiation, then I wouldn’t have a problem with them.
Neither organization is innocent, and neither citzenry deserves violence.
I’m anti-terrorism, too. If Hamas were to lay down arms and commit to a peaceful negotiation, then I wouldn’t have a problem with them.
The PA did that and it didn’t get them very far. For Palestine to actually see progress we need to realize there’s a reason most Palestinians support Hamas and other resistance groups and almost none of them support the PA, and that’s because the PA is a failure. Peaceful negotiation doesn’t work with Israel and never did, because they see Palestine as their god-given right and Palestinians as a nuance at best. Not generalizing to all Israelis, but this is the position of most Jewish Israelis and the current government.
Honestly, I don’t even give a shit about Hamas not committing to a peaceful negotiation. It’s the deliberate targeting of uninvolved civilians which is my problem.
I have an issue with Israel not committing to a serious stance of peaceful negotiation, because they are quite clearly in a position to do so while maintaining reasonably firm on issues of the security of the Israeli people - and yet refuse to do so because the Israeli right-wing craves lebensraum and the Israeli left has been castrated since the 80s.
I don’t have an issue with Palestinian nationalists not committing to a serious stance of peaceful negotiation, because the last attempt in the 90s fizzled out because the Israeli right decided they would just… rather not adhere to the agreements they signed. If force is what it takes to earn independence from an occupier, force it is.
That being said, I’m generally anti-Hamas for a variety of other reasons, but choosing to engage in armed struggle isn’t one of them. Until Israel is willing to negotiate in good faith, the use of armed force is legitimate.
AFAIK Hamas didn’t “deliberately” target civilians. That is to say, Hamas soldiers didn’t get orders saying “Kill random civilians”. Not denying that Hamas killed a lot of civilians of course, but we need to distinguish between individual, if rampant, action and leadership policy.
And considering Hamas’s history of targeting Israeli civilians, I’m not really sure why this is all suddenly up in the air because Hamas spokesmen now claim that they would NEVER target civilians intentionally, pinky promise. Considering that the ratio of civilians killed is comparable or in excess to Israel’s current ratio, the only thing that seems to distinguish Israel and Hamas is ability to wage a sustained military effort, not any difference in willingness to slaughter innocent people.
Oh, it’s that one. It says “inflict the enemy as many personnel casualties as possible”. And given that one of Hamas’s goals was to inflict damage against the IDF (and while Hamas soldiers’ conduct was horrible it didn’t quite come as far as “kill as many civilians as possible”), the logical interpretation of those papers is that it means Israeli soldiers or security personnel. That would also align more with their other goal of taking as many hostages as possible.
And considering Hamas’s history of targeting Israeli civilians, I’m not really sure why this is all suddenly up in the air because Hamas spokesmen now claim that they would NEVER target civilians intentionally
It’s up in the air because while Hamas does have a history firing rocket attacks into Israel, that has arguable military benefits (forcing Israel to use the iron dome and getting concessions out of them like in 2021) and isn’t as personal or surefire as just pointing your gun at civilians and firing. Hamas’s history of actually fighting inside Israel is AFAIK just this one time so they don’t really have a track record one way or the other.
Oh, it’s that one. It says “inflict the enemy as many personnel casualties as possible”. And given that one of Hamas’s goals was to inflict damage against the IDF (and while Hamas soldiers’ conduct was horrible it didn’t quite come as far as “kill as many civilians as possible”), the logical interpretation of those papers is that it means Israeli soldiers or security personnel. That would also align more with their other goal of taking as many hostages as possible.
You think they were expecting lots of IDF at the elementary schools they targeted? Hamas, again, had an equal or worse civilian casualty ratio than the IDF has right now, and the IDF has a fucking horrible civilian casualty ratio. Is Israel not going quite as far as “kill as many civilians as possible”? Because I would disagree.
It’s up in the air because while Hamas does have a history firing rocket attacks into Israel, that has arguable military benefits (forcing Israel to use the iron dome) and isn’t as personal or surefire as just pointing your gun at civilians and firing. Hamas’s history of actually fighting inside Israel is AFAIK just this one time so they don’t really have a track record one way or the other.
Hamas also has a history of using suicide bombers against civilian targets, specifically.
You think they were expecting lots of IDF at the elementary schools they targeted?
Hamas, again, had an equal or worse civilian casualty ratio than the IDF has right now,
Irrespective of whether October 7th deliberately targeted civilians or not, that’s only true if you take the IDF’s numbers as is, which is… questionable. AFAIK 70% of casualties are women and children. And the IDF killed their own citizens during the attack so it’s not just Hamas’s casualty ratio (though Hamas did likely inflict most of them).
Yeah I see what you mean now. I still think need a bit more decisive evidence, but this does make Hamas deliberately targeting civilians a lot more believable.
Irrespective of whether October 7th deliberately targeted civilians or not, that’s only true if you take the IDF’s numbers as is, which is… questionable. AFAIK 70% of casualties are women and children.
Hamas’s numbers are at a 68% civilian casualty ratio, which is similar to the range generally accepted for the Israeli civilian casualty ratio, which is estimated from 60%-80%.
Israeli claims are a 50% civilian casualty ratio, which is not regarded as realistic.
And the IDF killed their own citizens during the attack so it’s not just Hamas’s casualty ratio (though Hamas did likely inflict most of them).
And I’m sure that Hamas has inflicted some of the current casualties in Gaza, but it’s not likely to be a large enough percentage to be notable.
They attacked a music festival with indescriminate gunfire, taking and raping hostages. That’s not a deliberate attack against civilians? Was it exclusively an IDF/Zionist affair?
The fuck are you talking about? How do you know what their orders are?
If part of an organization is committing evil acts, the organization is evil. If taking hostages and murdering civilians wasn’t sanctioned by leadership, then they’d be released and the perpetrators made an example of.
What Hamas (and the IDF, but mostly Hamas) did at the festival was frankly horrible, no arguments there. But the festival was in fact something Hamas didn’t know of in advance, so while it’s very much an indictment of the average Hamas soldier (not that it needed to be said Palestinians hate Israelis) I’m not sure it reflects on the leadership.
If part of an organization is committing evil acts, the organization is evil. If taking hostages and murdering civilians wasn’t sanctioned by leadership, then they’d be released and the perpetrators made an example of.
That’d be the case in an ideal world, but I can’t see a universe where they’d be actually be able to do that.
No like in the particular case of Hamas I don’t think it’s possible. As far as the average Palestinian (or Arab more generally) is concerned Israeli = occupier = criminal = death.
Man, militant organizations have restrained their members from retribution against much more severe crimes than “Being the wrong ethnicity”. Hamas isn’t some after-school sports club who can’t do more than wag a finger at their members. They’re an actual organization, with billions (with a B) in funding, a network of informal clientage, and formal organizational structures.
Hamas’s leadership doesn’t restrain or punish those in its ranks who’ve killed civilians because Hamas is down for it. Every Israeli civilian killed is, to them, another Jew closer to the cleansing of Palestine from the occupying power. Not only that, but every Israeli civilian killed hardens Israeli society against Hamas, and Hamas thrives on conflict - as long as there is conflict between the two, there will be Hamas - and so Hamas, like the Israeli right, is hell-bent on doing everything they can to intensify, prolong, and preserve this conflict.
Civilians in these territories are quickly and easily converted into enemy combatants, thanks to the policies and conditions of the respective states.
On the Israeli side, everyone is expected to be eligible for call-up to serve in the IDF. Its a condition of citizenship. Similarly, every exit from Gaza is manned by Israeli military personal who conceive of any effort to breach the perimeter as an act of war. Israeli Settlers are all armed and expected to assist in securing that border. And they routinely fire across the border at what they consider hostile targets within the Gaza region. If everyone living along the border is potentially a member of the military, and even the farmers and construction workers and homemakers are expected to serve as de facto border guards, does that mean Israel lacks a civilian population? shrug
Similarly, on the Gaza side, we’ve seen Israel Defense Force officers insist that children as young as six years old were enemy combatants. We’ve seen their policy of shooting through “human shields” and bombing schools, shelters, and hospitals on the grounds that they are all protecting militants or harboring tunnel networks underneath. What civilian population remains to speak of in Gaza, when every resident can be credibly identified as an insurgent and every inch of real estate justifiably bombarded on the grounds that it is part of a Hamas military installation?
Under these conditions, what civilian population exists to speak of?
Being anti-Israel doesn’t excuse people who claim massacres of civilians and the killings of children are ‘legitimate resistance’ though, and that’s who this meme is oriented towards.
This is the internet. You have neonazi anti-semites who hate Jewish people and think October 7th was a false flag. You have Islamic extremists who think Hamas was justified in their attack, and don’t consider any Israelis to be “innocent.” And then you have your generic edgelords who are sitting around baiting strangers into arguments for shits and giggles while they wait for their testicles to drop.
Are you asking in good faith? Because I’ve argued with a lot of people who ask for proof and then immediately reject it as false or irrelevant, and tbqh I hate wasting time and effort.
I mean if the prior ties of the Israeli government to Hamas is correct, then one implies the other (i.e anti Israeli government implies anti-hamas not pro hamas)
I’m not pro-Hamas, I’m anti-Israel
I’m anti-genocide. If Israel were to stop the genocide and prosecute the perpetrators, then I wouldn’t have a problem with Israel. I’m anti-terrorism, too. If Hamas were to lay down arms and commit to a peaceful negotiation, then I wouldn’t have a problem with them.
Neither organization is innocent, and neither citzenry deserves violence.
The PA did that and it didn’t get them very far. For Palestine to actually see progress we need to realize there’s a reason most Palestinians support Hamas and other resistance groups and almost none of them support the PA, and that’s because the PA is a failure. Peaceful negotiation doesn’t work with Israel and never did, because they see Palestine as their god-given right and Palestinians as a nuance at best. Not generalizing to all Israelis, but this is the position of most Jewish Israelis and the current government.
Honestly, I don’t even give a shit about Hamas not committing to a peaceful negotiation. It’s the deliberate targeting of uninvolved civilians which is my problem.
By Hamas or by Israel?
Both for the targeting of civilians.
I have an issue with Israel not committing to a serious stance of peaceful negotiation, because they are quite clearly in a position to do so while maintaining reasonably firm on issues of the security of the Israeli people - and yet refuse to do so because the Israeli right-wing craves lebensraum and the Israeli left has been castrated since the 80s.
I don’t have an issue with Palestinian nationalists not committing to a serious stance of peaceful negotiation, because the last attempt in the 90s fizzled out because the Israeli right decided they would just… rather not adhere to the agreements they signed. If force is what it takes to earn independence from an occupier, force it is.
That being said, I’m generally anti-Hamas for a variety of other reasons, but choosing to engage in armed struggle isn’t one of them. Until Israel is willing to negotiate in good faith, the use of armed force is legitimate.
AFAIK Hamas didn’t “deliberately” target civilians. That is to say, Hamas soldiers didn’t get orders saying “Kill random civilians”. Not denying that Hamas killed a lot of civilians of course, but we need to distinguish between individual, if rampant, action and leadership policy.
Hamas deliberately targeted uninvolved civilians for use as hostages and, yes, for killing.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/top-secret-hamas-documents-show-terrorists-intentionally-targeted-elem-rcna120310
And considering Hamas’s history of targeting Israeli civilians, I’m not really sure why this is all suddenly up in the air because Hamas spokesmen now claim that they would NEVER target civilians intentionally, pinky promise. Considering that the ratio of civilians killed is comparable or in excess to Israel’s current ratio, the only thing that seems to distinguish Israel and Hamas is ability to wage a sustained military effort, not any difference in willingness to slaughter innocent people.
Oh, it’s that one. It says “inflict the enemy as many personnel casualties as possible”. And given that one of Hamas’s goals was to inflict damage against the IDF (and while Hamas soldiers’ conduct was horrible it didn’t quite come as far as “kill as many civilians as possible”), the logical interpretation of those papers is that it means Israeli soldiers or security personnel. That would also align more with their other goal of taking as many hostages as possible.
It’s up in the air because while Hamas does have a history firing rocket attacks into Israel, that has arguable military benefits (forcing Israel to use the iron dome and getting concessions out of them like in 2021) and isn’t as personal or surefire as just pointing your gun at civilians and firing. Hamas’s history of actually fighting inside Israel is AFAIK just this one time so they don’t really have a track record one way or the other.
You think they were expecting lots of IDF at the elementary schools they targeted? Hamas, again, had an equal or worse civilian casualty ratio than the IDF has right now, and the IDF has a fucking horrible civilian casualty ratio. Is Israel not going quite as far as “kill as many civilians as possible”? Because I would disagree.
Hamas also has a history of using suicide bombers against civilian targets, specifically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2000s
Irrespective of whether October 7th deliberately targeted civilians or not, that’s only true if you take the IDF’s numbers as is, which is… questionable. AFAIK 70% of casualties are women and children. And the IDF killed their own citizens during the attack so it’s not just Hamas’s casualty ratio (though Hamas did likely inflict most of them).
Yeah I see what you mean now. I still think need a bit more decisive evidence, but this does make Hamas deliberately targeting civilians a lot more believable.
Hamas’s numbers are at a 68% civilian casualty ratio, which is similar to the range generally accepted for the Israeli civilian casualty ratio, which is estimated from 60%-80%.
Israeli claims are a 50% civilian casualty ratio, which is not regarded as realistic.
And I’m sure that Hamas has inflicted some of the current casualties in Gaza, but it’s not likely to be a large enough percentage to be notable.
They attacked a music festival with indescriminate gunfire, taking and raping hostages. That’s not a deliberate attack against civilians? Was it exclusively an IDF/Zionist affair?
The fuck are you talking about? How do you know what their orders are?
If part of an organization is committing evil acts, the organization is evil. If taking hostages and murdering civilians wasn’t sanctioned by leadership, then they’d be released and the perpetrators made an example of.
What Hamas (and the IDF, but mostly Hamas) did at the festival was frankly horrible, no arguments there. But the festival was in fact something Hamas didn’t know of in advance, so while it’s very much an indictment of the average Hamas soldier (not that it needed to be said Palestinians hate Israelis) I’m not sure it reflects on the leadership.
That’d be the case in an ideal world, but I can’t see a universe where they’d be actually be able to do that.
You don’t see a universe where a militant organization can release hostages and punish its own members for violating orders?
No like in the particular case of Hamas I don’t think it’s possible. As far as the average Palestinian (or Arab more generally) is concerned Israeli = occupier = criminal = death.
Man, militant organizations have restrained their members from retribution against much more severe crimes than “Being the wrong ethnicity”. Hamas isn’t some after-school sports club who can’t do more than wag a finger at their members. They’re an actual organization, with billions (with a B) in funding, a network of informal clientage, and formal organizational structures.
Hamas’s leadership doesn’t restrain or punish those in its ranks who’ve killed civilians because Hamas is down for it. Every Israeli civilian killed is, to them, another Jew closer to the cleansing of Palestine from the occupying power. Not only that, but every Israeli civilian killed hardens Israeli society against Hamas, and Hamas thrives on conflict - as long as there is conflict between the two, there will be Hamas - and so Hamas, like the Israeli right, is hell-bent on doing everything they can to intensify, prolong, and preserve this conflict.
I’m pro-civilian.
The bulk of the combatants are conscripts in Israel and partisans in Gaza. This is functionally a war between civilians.
I’m not sure a conscript or partisan fall under the definition of civilian. But what do I know.
Civilians in these territories are quickly and easily converted into enemy combatants, thanks to the policies and conditions of the respective states.
On the Israeli side, everyone is expected to be eligible for call-up to serve in the IDF. Its a condition of citizenship. Similarly, every exit from Gaza is manned by Israeli military personal who conceive of any effort to breach the perimeter as an act of war. Israeli Settlers are all armed and expected to assist in securing that border. And they routinely fire across the border at what they consider hostile targets within the Gaza region. If everyone living along the border is potentially a member of the military, and even the farmers and construction workers and homemakers are expected to serve as de facto border guards, does that mean Israel lacks a civilian population? shrug
Similarly, on the Gaza side, we’ve seen Israel Defense Force officers insist that children as young as six years old were enemy combatants. We’ve seen their policy of shooting through “human shields” and bombing schools, shelters, and hospitals on the grounds that they are all protecting militants or harboring tunnel networks underneath. What civilian population remains to speak of in Gaza, when every resident can be credibly identified as an insurgent and every inch of real estate justifiably bombarded on the grounds that it is part of a Hamas military installation?
Under these conditions, what civilian population exists to speak of?
I think this is something a lot of people need to realize.
Being anti-Israel doesn’t excuse people who claim massacres of civilians and the killings of children are ‘legitimate resistance’ though, and that’s who this meme is oriented towards.
Who claims that?
This is the internet. You have neonazi anti-semites who hate Jewish people and think October 7th was a false flag. You have Islamic extremists who think Hamas was justified in their attack, and don’t consider any Israelis to be “innocent.” And then you have your generic edgelords who are sitting around baiting strangers into arguments for shits and giggles while they wait for their testicles to drop.
Are you asking in good faith? Because I’ve argued with a lot of people who ask for proof and then immediately reject it as false or irrelevant, and tbqh I hate wasting time and effort.
As long as you aren’t playing apologist for Hamas’s crimes, I’m down. Fuck Israel and its ongoing genocide.
I mean if the prior ties of the Israeli government to Hamas is correct, then one implies the other (i.e anti Israeli government implies anti-hamas not pro hamas)