And considering Hamas’s history of targeting Israeli civilians, I’m not really sure why this is all suddenly up in the air because Hamas spokesmen now claim that they would NEVER target civilians intentionally, pinky promise. Considering that the ratio of civilians killed is comparable or in excess to Israel’s current ratio, the only thing that seems to distinguish Israel and Hamas is ability to wage a sustained military effort, not any difference in willingness to slaughter innocent people.
Oh, it’s that one. It says “inflict the enemy as many personnel casualties as possible”. And given that one of Hamas’s goals was to inflict damage against the IDF (and while Hamas soldiers’ conduct was horrible it didn’t quite come as far as “kill as many civilians as possible”), the logical interpretation of those papers is that it means Israeli soldiers or security personnel. That would also align more with their other goal of taking as many hostages as possible.
And considering Hamas’s history of targeting Israeli civilians, I’m not really sure why this is all suddenly up in the air because Hamas spokesmen now claim that they would NEVER target civilians intentionally
It’s up in the air because while Hamas does have a history firing rocket attacks into Israel, that has arguable military benefits (forcing Israel to use the iron dome and getting concessions out of them like in 2021) and isn’t as personal or surefire as just pointing your gun at civilians and firing. Hamas’s history of actually fighting inside Israel is AFAIK just this one time so they don’t really have a track record one way or the other.
Oh, it’s that one. It says “inflict the enemy as many personnel casualties as possible”. And given that one of Hamas’s goals was to inflict damage against the IDF (and while Hamas soldiers’ conduct was horrible it didn’t quite come as far as “kill as many civilians as possible”), the logical interpretation of those papers is that it means Israeli soldiers or security personnel. That would also align more with their other goal of taking as many hostages as possible.
You think they were expecting lots of IDF at the elementary schools they targeted? Hamas, again, had an equal or worse civilian casualty ratio than the IDF has right now, and the IDF has a fucking horrible civilian casualty ratio. Is Israel not going quite as far as “kill as many civilians as possible”? Because I would disagree.
It’s up in the air because while Hamas does have a history firing rocket attacks into Israel, that has arguable military benefits (forcing Israel to use the iron dome) and isn’t as personal or surefire as just pointing your gun at civilians and firing. Hamas’s history of actually fighting inside Israel is AFAIK just this one time so they don’t really have a track record one way or the other.
Hamas also has a history of using suicide bombers against civilian targets, specifically.
You think they were expecting lots of IDF at the elementary schools they targeted?
Hamas, again, had an equal or worse civilian casualty ratio than the IDF has right now,
Irrespective of whether October 7th deliberately targeted civilians or not, that’s only true if you take the IDF’s numbers as is, which is… questionable. AFAIK 70% of casualties are women and children. And the IDF killed their own citizens during the attack so it’s not just Hamas’s casualty ratio (though Hamas did likely inflict most of them).
Yeah I see what you mean now. I still think need a bit more decisive evidence, but this does make Hamas deliberately targeting civilians a lot more believable.
Irrespective of whether October 7th deliberately targeted civilians or not, that’s only true if you take the IDF’s numbers as is, which is… questionable. AFAIK 70% of casualties are women and children.
Hamas’s numbers are at a 68% civilian casualty ratio, which is similar to the range generally accepted for the Israeli civilian casualty ratio, which is estimated from 60%-80%.
Israeli claims are a 50% civilian casualty ratio, which is not regarded as realistic.
And the IDF killed their own citizens during the attack so it’s not just Hamas’s casualty ratio (though Hamas did likely inflict most of them).
And I’m sure that Hamas has inflicted some of the current casualties in Gaza, but it’s not likely to be a large enough percentage to be notable.
Hamas’s numbers are at a 68% civilian casualty ratio,
Hamas’s numbers? Where are those?
And I’m sure that Hamas has inflicted some of the current casualties in Gaza, but it’s not likely to be a large enough percentage to be notable.
It’s different in the case of October 7th because we know a significant number of Israeli civilian casualties was inflicted by IDF shelling or reckless fire. For example, they had orders to prevent Hamas soldiers from retreating even if they had hostages (which they did by shelling Hamas with the hostages).
It’s different in the case of October 7th because we know a significant number of Israeli civilian casualties was inflicted by IDF shelling or reckless fire.
Oh, we do know that, do we? Do you have any actual numbers to back this claim up?
Oh I thought you meant Hamas released their casualty numbers. I’ll just say that when you see “Israeli casualty ratio” most people will think “casualty ratio in October 7th”, not “ratio of casualties inflicted by Israel”, and same for “Hamas casualty ratio”.
Oh, we do know that, do we? Do you have any actual numbers to back this claim up?
So while there are no concrete numbers (I think those are lost to time at this point), we do know it happened in a significant capacity.
https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/759856/Israel-s-IDF-ordered-to-prevent-Hamas-from-returning-to-Gaza
(contains the Hebrew article and a translation in the comments).
Hamas deliberately targeted uninvolved civilians for use as hostages and, yes, for killing.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/top-secret-hamas-documents-show-terrorists-intentionally-targeted-elem-rcna120310
And considering Hamas’s history of targeting Israeli civilians, I’m not really sure why this is all suddenly up in the air because Hamas spokesmen now claim that they would NEVER target civilians intentionally, pinky promise. Considering that the ratio of civilians killed is comparable or in excess to Israel’s current ratio, the only thing that seems to distinguish Israel and Hamas is ability to wage a sustained military effort, not any difference in willingness to slaughter innocent people.
Oh, it’s that one. It says “inflict the enemy as many personnel casualties as possible”. And given that one of Hamas’s goals was to inflict damage against the IDF (and while Hamas soldiers’ conduct was horrible it didn’t quite come as far as “kill as many civilians as possible”), the logical interpretation of those papers is that it means Israeli soldiers or security personnel. That would also align more with their other goal of taking as many hostages as possible.
It’s up in the air because while Hamas does have a history firing rocket attacks into Israel, that has arguable military benefits (forcing Israel to use the iron dome and getting concessions out of them like in 2021) and isn’t as personal or surefire as just pointing your gun at civilians and firing. Hamas’s history of actually fighting inside Israel is AFAIK just this one time so they don’t really have a track record one way or the other.
You think they were expecting lots of IDF at the elementary schools they targeted? Hamas, again, had an equal or worse civilian casualty ratio than the IDF has right now, and the IDF has a fucking horrible civilian casualty ratio. Is Israel not going quite as far as “kill as many civilians as possible”? Because I would disagree.
Hamas also has a history of using suicide bombers against civilian targets, specifically.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2000s
Irrespective of whether October 7th deliberately targeted civilians or not, that’s only true if you take the IDF’s numbers as is, which is… questionable. AFAIK 70% of casualties are women and children. And the IDF killed their own citizens during the attack so it’s not just Hamas’s casualty ratio (though Hamas did likely inflict most of them).
Yeah I see what you mean now. I still think need a bit more decisive evidence, but this does make Hamas deliberately targeting civilians a lot more believable.
Hamas’s numbers are at a 68% civilian casualty ratio, which is similar to the range generally accepted for the Israeli civilian casualty ratio, which is estimated from 60%-80%.
Israeli claims are a 50% civilian casualty ratio, which is not regarded as realistic.
And I’m sure that Hamas has inflicted some of the current casualties in Gaza, but it’s not likely to be a large enough percentage to be notable.
Hamas’s numbers? Where are those?
It’s different in the case of October 7th because we know a significant number of Israeli civilian casualties was inflicted by IDF shelling or reckless fire. For example, they had orders to prevent Hamas soldiers from retreating even if they had hostages (which they did by shelling Hamas with the hostages).
Current Israeli numbers of Hamas’s attack by social security data.
Oh, we do know that, do we? Do you have any actual numbers to back this claim up?
Oh I thought you meant Hamas released their casualty numbers. I’ll just say that when you see “Israeli casualty ratio” most people will think “casualty ratio in October 7th”, not “ratio of casualties inflicted by Israel”, and same for “Hamas casualty ratio”.
So while there are no concrete numbers (I think those are lost to time at this point), we do know it happened in a significant capacity.
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/ (source is for some reason rated badly on MBFC, but I think that’s more of MBFC’s bias, and either way all claims are separately sourced).
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/another-israeli-witness-confirms-israeli-tanks-killed-own-citizens-on-oct-7/3079514
https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/759856/Israel-s-IDF-ordered-to-prevent-Hamas-from-returning-to-Gaza
(contains the Hebrew article and a translation in the comments).