I think he’s walking a line. On the one side are people who want the US to stop all support until Israel stops, want the US to stop threatening the international courts seeking to hold Israel officials accountable for war crimes - essentially, want the US to treat Israel like we are treating Russia. On the other side is a powerful, well-funded pro-Israel lobby (which the Palestinians don’t have) and a traditionally fairly cohesive and influential pro-Israel voting block. Plus, Israel is our Ally, like officially; Palesteine is not.
He’s slowly, slightly shifting from full-throated support of Israel, but so far all he’s doing is withhold some ordinance. It feels as of all he’s doing is pissing off both sides, rather than shifting some support.
Honestly, I think he’s in a no-win situation. It’s critical for the USA that he win this next election - Trump is an existential threat to Democracy in the US. There’s a lot of money and influence he loses by not getting the pro-Israel lobby on his side, and who does he lose by continuing support? Are the disenfranchised youth going to vote for him if he pivots on Israel? All the folks who’ve been complaining (rightly) about the cost of living, housing prices, healthcare costs, loss of rights over their own bodies - all these folks who protest-voted in the primaries and are threatening to protest-vote in the general election… they’re all suddenly going to jump on Team Biden if he cuts off Israel? In enough numbers to counter what he loses from the pro-Israel lobby?
So I think the irony is that if standing with Israel means he can win the election, it’s still a better outcome for Palestine than if he loses. If he loses the election, Trump will tell Israel to just go ahead and glass the area.
Edit: Came across this article here today, which I think has basically the same view.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. It feels better knowing that at least one other person around here gets it. I’ve been trying to explain this to people since the start of this whole thing and all I get is downvoted into oblivion for it.
On the other side is a bigger powerful, well-funded pro-Israel lobby (which the Palestinians don’t have) and a traditionally fairly cohesive and influential pro-Israel voting block.
The bolding is my own addition. I think this is the part people seem to refuse to understand. The pro-Israel side is many times larger than the pro-Palestine side. Even if he were to change positions the day that Israel bombed the first hospital, all that would mean is that we’d be seeing even larger pro-Israel protests instead of pro-Palestine ones, and politicians from both parties would be taking Biden to task for essentially abandoning one of our allies.
And I agree with your assessment that at this point, all he’s doing is pissing both sides off. But in reality, there was never a situation where he wasn’t going to piss off somebody. From the point of view of his attempts to get re-elected, he’s probably taking the least shitty option available to him. Whether or not any of us agree on if it’s the morally correct choice, I at least can acknowledge and understand that the other options available to him are all significantly worse and would only significantly increase Trump’s chances of winning, which is just worse for everybody regardless of which side of the issue you’re on.
Deontology is moral masturbation, a luxury reserved for those with little effect on the world. Responsible, conscious adults have to take into account the consequences of their choices. Politicians’ choices have consequences which are orders of magnitude more significant than a random person. The president of the United States, especially this president ahead of this election, has a vast number of complex consequences to consider in their moral calculus.
When political choices have moral consequences, and vice versa, you can’t draw a tidy line between the two considerations.
It’s critical for the USA that he win this next election - Trump is an existential threat to Democracy in the US.
It’s critical for the world that Trump not win.
Trump is immediately going to stop any support for Ukraine and hand that to Putin on a silver platter, is going to weaken NATO and the UN as much as he possibly can, and is going to flip the US from the virtual ‘allies’ to ‘axis’ before the end of his first next four years. Which will go on as long as he is alive, as once he gets power he’s not giving it up.
He isn’t even playing coy with his praise for megalomaniacal current dictators, especially Putin.
With Trump in charge of the US, you can expect him and Putin together actively working to spread Christian fascism to Europe using subversion and eventually force where needed.
It’s not just the US that’s on the line in November.
So I think the irony is that if standing with Israel means he can win the election, it’s still a better outcome for Palestine than if he loses. If he loses the election, Trump will tell Israel to just go ahead and glass the area.
The irony is how much you have twisted your political beliefs to find a position you feel ok about this from.
The majority of Americans think what Israel is doing is heinous and want it to stop, the idea that Americans are evenly divided on this is not grounded in reality.
Very well said. There’s so many people here that could really use a deep education on the concept of nuance. I used to try and have patience to explain it with kindness. But that went nowhere.
I think he’s walking a line. On the one side are people who want the US to stop all support until Israel stops, want the US to stop threatening the international courts seeking to hold Israel officials accountable for war crimes - essentially, want the US to treat Israel like we are treating Russia. On the other side is a powerful, well-funded pro-Israel lobby (which the Palestinians don’t have) and a traditionally fairly cohesive and influential pro-Israel voting block. Plus, Israel is our Ally, like officially; Palesteine is not.
He’s slowly, slightly shifting from full-throated support of Israel, but so far all he’s doing is withhold some ordinance. It feels as of all he’s doing is pissing off both sides, rather than shifting some support.
Honestly, I think he’s in a no-win situation. It’s critical for the USA that he win this next election - Trump is an existential threat to Democracy in the US. There’s a lot of money and influence he loses by not getting the pro-Israel lobby on his side, and who does he lose by continuing support? Are the disenfranchised youth going to vote for him if he pivots on Israel? All the folks who’ve been complaining (rightly) about the cost of living, housing prices, healthcare costs, loss of rights over their own bodies - all these folks who protest-voted in the primaries and are threatening to protest-vote in the general election… they’re all suddenly going to jump on Team Biden if he cuts off Israel? In enough numbers to counter what he loses from the pro-Israel lobby?
So I think the irony is that if standing with Israel means he can win the election, it’s still a better outcome for Palestine than if he loses. If he loses the election, Trump will tell Israel to just go ahead and glass the area.
Edit: Came across this article here today, which I think has basically the same view.
Thank you, thank you, thank you. It feels better knowing that at least one other person around here gets it. I’ve been trying to explain this to people since the start of this whole thing and all I get is downvoted into oblivion for it.
The bolding is my own addition. I think this is the part people seem to refuse to understand. The pro-Israel side is many times larger than the pro-Palestine side. Even if he were to change positions the day that Israel bombed the first hospital, all that would mean is that we’d be seeing even larger pro-Israel protests instead of pro-Palestine ones, and politicians from both parties would be taking Biden to task for essentially abandoning one of our allies.
And I agree with your assessment that at this point, all he’s doing is pissing both sides off. But in reality, there was never a situation where he wasn’t going to piss off somebody. From the point of view of his attempts to get re-elected, he’s probably taking the least shitty option available to him. Whether or not any of us agree on if it’s the morally correct choice, I at least can acknowledge and understand that the other options available to him are all significantly worse and would only significantly increase Trump’s chances of winning, which is just worse for everybody regardless of which side of the issue you’re on.
It’s not black and white politically. It’s clear as day morally. And he’s falling on that score
Deontology is moral masturbation, a luxury reserved for those with little effect on the world. Responsible, conscious adults have to take into account the consequences of their choices. Politicians’ choices have consequences which are orders of magnitude more significant than a random person. The president of the United States, especially this president ahead of this election, has a vast number of complex consequences to consider in their moral calculus.
When political choices have moral consequences, and vice versa, you can’t draw a tidy line between the two considerations.
It’s impressive making a post like that while accusing others of moral masturbation.
Did I? I described a practice as moral masturbation, I didn’t accuse anyone of anything.
You did. Unless that another hair you’d like to split. I’m done with this conversation.
This is an impressive contribution.
It’s critical for the world that Trump not win.
Trump is immediately going to stop any support for Ukraine and hand that to Putin on a silver platter, is going to weaken NATO and the UN as much as he possibly can, and is going to flip the US from the virtual ‘allies’ to ‘axis’ before the end of his first next four years. Which will go on as long as he is alive, as once he gets power he’s not giving it up.
He isn’t even playing coy with his praise for megalomaniacal current dictators, especially Putin.
With Trump in charge of the US, you can expect him and Putin together actively working to spread Christian fascism to Europe using subversion and eventually force where needed.
It’s not just the US that’s on the line in November.
Don’t forget Taiwan. Tech investments aside, Taiwan doesn’t stand a chance against China alone.
The irony is how much you have twisted your political beliefs to find a position you feel ok about this from.
The majority of Americans think what Israel is doing is heinous and want it to stop, the idea that Americans are evenly divided on this is not grounded in reality.
Who said Americans are evenly divided on it?
Very well said. There’s so many people here that could really use a deep education on the concept of nuance. I used to try and have patience to explain it with kindness. But that went nowhere.