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This reminds me of that AskHistorian thread of someone asking where people parked their chariots when Roman citizens went to the coliseum.
Heh. Their palanquin or litter would drop them off and go sit in an alley or street somewhere, probably. Like how carriages in later centuries would.
Well?
Where did they?
Iirc, chariots where only used to transport people and goods between towns and cities, being pretty rare inside cities if not completely forbidden.
so… they park them at city limits? it’s a good question
They probably assumed this is like a theme park or something and not an actual city that people actually live in year round. Cities having nice, people friendly places away from cars? Who’s ever heard of that?
Well this guy’s apparently never been to Germany, they do in fact have a lot of parking garages and street parking in cities. Is straight up lying how you’re going to convince people to build public transit?
Of course there is some parking, but there is no need for a dedicated car park for this market. Many of these people will have come on foot or by public transport, that isn’t a lie at all. Public transport in Germany isn’t exactly a model to follow imo (I was surprised, I expected it to be down to an art tbh), but like most of Europe the cities are walkable and at least have some form of public transport system.
I was surprised, I expected it to be down to an art tbh
The Nazis were so fucking good at propaganda. People still believe the “Germans are so efficient and good at everything” today, it’s wild
Of course there is some parking, but there is no need for a dedicated car park for this market.
Most people visit this market (Striezelmarkt in Dresden, Germany) using public transport, yes, but the market does have a “dedicated” car park.
In fact, this market is built directly on top of a giant underground car park.
There is no parking area just for the christmas market though, which is what the american assumed
they dont park cars. They crush them and build new ones when they want to go somewhere
There was an old cartoon where they did this. I can’t find it anymore
Completely off topic, but can anyone pinpoint this Christmas market? Looks hella cozy, but I don’t recognize the buildings around it.
I’d say that’s the Striezelmarkt in Dresden (Germany’s oldest Christmas market over 580 years old) but the big ones kinda all look like that.
By the way that’s what they have to say about the posts topic on their website: “best accessibility: local public transport, on foot and by bike”
Is that Munich? I’m getting strong Viktualienmarkt vibes.
I would say it’s Dresden.
Definitetly it’s the Altmarkt
When I lived in Germany for a while, my wife and I took a train across the country one winter to Munich for the Christmas markets. We stayed in a hostel and walked the streets, enjoying the various stalls. I’d never heard of Glüwein before (hot, mulled, spiced red wine), but it was fantastic! It was an amazing experience and we didn’t have to worry about parking lots or figuring out public transportation. Everything was within walking distance and we ended up touring all of Munich on foot.
I wish the US would get off its ass and get some high speed trains set up. We just need to keep oil and auto dealers out of the discussion because they keep shutting it down. Like Musk’s “Hyperloop” project, which he proposed to stop legislation from approving high speed trains, but then intentionally did nothing with, so we just don’t develop trains to replace his Tesla cars.
High speed trains should actually not be the primary focus of the US when it commes to public transport, city/suburban systems are more important.
Don’t get me wrong, the US absolutely needs high speed rail, but without a well functioning local public transport system at both ends you end up with something that conceptually is more like an airport than a european train station.
Without local public transport, travelers still need to go by car to and from the endpoints, just like a lot of airports, this means that stations will require a lot of expensive parking, that is essentially wasted space.
Now, the US will probably allways be car dependant to a higher degree than Europe, this is due to how cities have been built, unchecked urban sprawl with little mixed use zones with few central spots makes it hard to build good metro and bus lines, where do you put the stations, where will people connect?
I won’t pretend to have the answers, I absolutely don’t, but I know that regardless of how public transport is established in new and existing neighbourhoods there will be angry people, but lets just make sure that the happy people outnumber them
They have transit to back that up though. There are plenty of smallish towns and rural areas that don’t have any transit at all.
At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes. Yes, some people (farmers) live outside of town and there are some American-style housing in clumps outside of the town, but everyone mostly lives in tight clusters.
And even the tiny towns well away from other larger towns have busses that move people between towns on a fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart). Only the larger population centres can afford to have public transport that comes every 5 minutes or so.
You also have to understand that in North America, a “significant separation between towns” is something like 100+km. In Germany, that term qualifies with as little as a 10km distance. It’s rare to find any population centre that is more than 20km away from its nearest neighbour.
At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes.
- Pandemics are a thing
- Families wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up. All of the grocery stores and mini-box stores left downtown Seattle because a lot are work from home now. If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature. You need to have transit for that.
Edit: I’m trying to understand the downvotes, is this not being taught in urban planning? Is it just developers wanting to rent their spaces because their leases are closing out? Or is it naive people wanting to force their ideas without realizing humans are going to make decisions in the process as well? Super interesting thread.
One of the mistakes for which j think you are down voted is thinking you can’t have nature nearby if you live in a more dense cluster. Quite the opposite is true. People living in apartments 4 or 5 high leaves a lot more open space available for parks, playgrounds, etc. Suburban sprawl looking for “wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play” is exactly what destroys this space in cities in the first place…
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up.
This is just a tautology
I think water is great if it has two hydrogens for each oxygen
Even if you have most things nearby for day-to-day life but still need to travel an hour for any of: school, work, daycare, groceries, or even common leisure or entertainment activities, “green spaces”… Then that ain’t a 15 minute city.
Additionally, transit is absolutely included in 15 minute city concept - whether it be pedestrian, biking, bus, train, mixed-mode trips, cars*… It’s a holistic concept so of course these are all under the umbrella.
* yes even cars can be included, but in order for the others to be successful they are general de-prioritized in this model.
Edit: I’ll also add that I see “15-minute city” is an aspirational goal, and anything that moves us closer towards it tends to be good for the people that live there - and even if not fully achieved in a particular place, this type of hand-wringing about specific aspects in order to disregard the whole concept seems disingenuous at best.
Families wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play
Prospect Park is often called Brooklyn’s back yard.
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up.
The fifteen minute city is the infrastructure.
Right, so let’s say we do it, we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what? How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters? Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one? Are you going to remake the economy?
You guys have to be trolling me, right? This is my last comment because I suspect you guys are.
- I think 15 minute cities are great, people should accommodate the people that want them
- The 15 minute cities won’t solve the corporation problem of hogging all of the resources and it seems like a distraction from them being the problem.
- You need transit, not everyone is 18-24, naive, and healthy with no kids
Good luck!
we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what?
Take a plane, a train, or an automobile!
How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters?
I’m fine with them. I’d prefer that they stayed off sidewalks, but that’s my only real thought on them.
Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one?
If you want to. I think a lot of the other commenters suggested using public transit. You could also drive. Maybe they do mail order?
You need transit, not everyone is 18-24, naive, and healthy with no kids
All of the comments I’ve read haven’t mentioned transit, or have been transit positive.
It sounds like you’re being deliberately obtuse, but just in case you’re genuine…
Cars simply weren’t a thing people had general access to before the 1950s and yet the economy and people did just fine. The huge majority of “getting around” that people need to do are going to work, going to school, shopping and entertainment. Do you really feel like having a 10 minute walk to work would be so hellish and dystopian? Wouldn’t it be nice if your kids could ask to go play in the park and they could just go 5 minutes down the road without you having to drive them? You could be a regular at that nice taco place down on the corner. You could buy more fresh produce if the grocery was across the street. If you do need to go to another city or go a farther distance, are you under the impression that people want to eliminate cars entirely? Cars are an amazing invention but the issue is over reliance, not their existence. By all means, drive or take a train an hour or two out of town but not everyone wants to have to drive to take their kids to school, sporting events or friends houses, or just to go grab food somewhere, or to see a movie, or all the other mundane daily trips that are part of every day life.
Cars simply weren’t a thing people had general access to before the 1950s and yet the economy and people did just fine.
Why did they have roads? lol
Same reason the Romans built roads 2000 years before cars existed. When was the last time you went hiking? Or even for a walk on a muddy trail?
I live in France, about 30 minutes from a major city. There is transit, but it’s not good, and has very few stops near where I live. Grocery shopping has to be done by car or bike as there aren’t any shops in the village. European cities are extremely well served by transit, but outside the metropolitan areas, cars are still king.
It’s a really interesting thread. Cities are great, suburb & rural can be great and transit is great. 15 minute cities are great goals, but it’s not a one size fits all situation. I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist? Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard? Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people. They’re either right out of school or trolling, I can’t tell which.
I can’t figure out how they think these utopian 15 minute cities would work if they don’t have a working transit built in. It’s so weird
Isn’t the assumption that the 15 minute city is a neighbourhood in a functional city? There should be transit.
It’s so weird, do they think handicapped people can bike and walk everywhere or don’t exist?
I lived in something like a fifteen minute neighbourhood. I saw people in wheelchairs around. They appeared to use the same amenities as everyone else.
Do they think parents love sending their kids down the block to play by themselves instead of the backyard?
Our kids preferred going to playgrounds because the toys and play structures were better. And they ran into kids they knew.
Their choices aren’t going to make sense for a ton of people.
I’m not sure what would be bad about a fifteen minute neighbourhood. It’s just a normal neighbourhood, with stores, schools, work, and civic infrastructure.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
There should be transit.
No, there are people in this thread saying that 15 minute cities are the transit. You’d think that would be the case.
As far as I can tell, a fifteen minute neighbourhood only adds to what exists, rather than taking away.
Look again at this thread, lol.
Neighborhoods that promote no cars would be great as long as they have the transit to back it up, imo as well.
Dig deeper and you’ll see the crazy.
Image Transcription: Twitter Post
gaut, @0xgaut
the American mind cannot comprehend this
[A screenshot of a Facebook post with reply, transcribed below]
It’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas
Christmas market in Germany 🇩🇪
I want to know how they deal with parking? They probably have huge parking garages 🤷♀️
Image Transcription: Twitter Post
That’s enough information, thanks.
We have a bunch of Christmas markets in the US. They get pretty packed. There are parking garages near them since their downtown in major cities (DC, Baltimore, Philly).
If only the EU understood just how sparse the US is geographically compared to the EU they may understand why cars are such a necessity.
We are talking about walking around a city lol, not a country
The problem is not that the US is sparse, is that cities are. You are probably misunderstanding the problem, and if not, you are not explaining correctly. Check out The Dumbest Excuse for Bad Cities from Not Just Bikes for a breakdown of the issue.
No one is blaming you individually, or even the US citizens individually. The problems are multiple for sure, but you won’t start to fix it unless you understand the issue properly. Maybe it’s not your case, but many US citizens are surely not seeing the point at all.
Now if only there was a long range form of transportation that could move a lot of people (or goods) from one city to another. 🤔 Maybe something that was set up over 150 years ago, lets say May 10, 1869.
We can only dream, I guess. 🤷♂️
lol
The American hate is pretty stupid really… especially from people who can’t imagine how large a place they’re trying to disparage.
Edit: fuck you lame motherfuckers… Pile it on. What I said is true.
Envy breeds contempt, simple as that
“You can’t criticize us because our country is bigger than yours”
What?
I didn’t say anything about criticism.
I said hate.
And it’s fucking stupid because it fails to recognize that the US isn’t the stereotypical monolith that the haters envision.
It’s a very diverse place with lots of variety in what there is to experience.
