ID: MUNROE @MunroeBergdorf posted: “Please don’t be surprised if I block you instead of engaging in ‘a debate’ about issues that don’t affect you, but impact on my life greatly. I do not need to, nor want to converse with people who prioritize their desire to prove a point, over my humanity and rights.”
Amanda Jette Knox @MunroeBergdorf replies: “THIS. You owe no one a debate on who you are, ever. Not online. Not in person. Not in the media.”
You must log in or register to comment.
It’s easy to see this as a jaded mindset, and heck, maybe it is… but it’s still anyone’s prerogative to just say “I don’t want to discuss this, and if you don’t like it, there’s the door”.
I sometimes engage in good faith conversations, where I later realize the good faith was only from one side of the argument. That SUCKS, so I get it.
Personally, I’ll still try to talk, but just because I’m a naive fool doesn’t mean others need to be :P
Well, someone like you won over a homophobic teenager with kindness and a good faith discussion almost three decades ago. And that teen, once he stopped hating for half a second, found out that he was gay himself, so thank you for engaging with those voices.
I won’t tell you to keep doing it, since it is exhausting and I can’t tell you what to do, but know that those efforts are hardly a complete waste.
You’re fantastic.
Thank you very much for sharing! Very relieving to hear that people are able to change like this. I’m glad you also were able to see your own flaws. I’m the same in that regard. I used to be a huge jerk
God damn it lemmy you know I can’t handle this much wholesome sincerity on a Wednesday
The whole premise of a debate usually comes with the connotation that you will never get convinced, and that if the other person was more convincing than you, then you “lost” and just need to be more persuasive next time.
So yes, just telling someone their opinions are bad usually doesn’t work and is a waste of effort, no matter how well written and supported you are.
From what I can tell a lot of this is just Twitter culture. It is totally possible to have a debate where the point is exploring the ways your ideas do and don’t make sense rather than purely trying to “win” by addressing a crowd with propaganda and rhetoric, it’s just that the internet has trended strongly towards the latter over the years.
I agree with OP in that I wouldn’t try to debate people on Twitter either. That doesn’t mean debate has no value though, you just need to figure out where your line is for when it isn’t going to be worth responding, and then do the hard part of actually committing to that.
But I wanna win!
Terrible motivation that guarantees that no one wins.
No! I’M GONNA WIN!
your instance doesnt have downvotes, when everyone wins no one does
You lost this: \
They didn’t, the Markdown interpreter ate it. Akchually, you need to write 3. I wrote about this earlier.
deleted by creator
Brain had an instant where I thought “is that…that Amanda Knox”
wow what are the odds we would both post this today i literally wrote up my post and photo shopped this image last night and waited to post til this morning
https://lemmy.world/post/24836517
edit possible trigger warning needed btw for my link i am not here to troll
This is the type of mindset that has destroyed civilized discourse and eventually leads to dumber peoples with religiously encrusted beliefs, no ability to learn, improve and progress. Finding it so taxing to discuss is usually because when putting their positions to the test they find they have no arguments.
This statement is at least twofold:
1 - it says “I do not have to debate to ensure I have basic human rights”, a statement that is clearly true in every instance.
2 - it is a reaction to bad-faith “debating” used as an attack tactic by oppressors; read up on sealioning: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
Combine those two facts, and you have people weaponizing “I’m just debating” to keep someone in an unending treadmill of debate where they constantly have to try to prove they deserve basic human rights. It’s actually hell.
Good faith debate and discourse on all key topics the media/gov pushes on us right now has been long settled, none of it is new, so someone actually willing to learn can just search “do trans people deserve basic human rights” or “can minorities be discriminated against by systemic factors” and there’s already robust answers that should not shock you!
No need to make a trans person make a case over and over again that they deserve to live or a Palestinian make a case that the system within which they live is an open-air jail. And that is what this person is saying.
I would like to have a civil conversation about your statement. Would you mind showing me evidence of any negative thing any sea lion has ever done to you?
God why
-
- it says “I do not have to debate to ensure I have basic human rights”, a statement that is clearly true in every instance.
…
No need to make a trans person make a case over and over again that they deserve to live or a Palestinian make a case that the system within which they live is an open-air jail. And that is what this person is saying.
That’s factually incorrect. Basic human rights can be taken away. It happened all over the world, along ancient and recent human history. It’s happening right now in Europe and in the USA. Basic human rights must never be taken for granted. They will always be attacked and therefore must always be protected.
Maybe random debate with strangers on the internet is not the most effective way to fight for human rights - but that’s not what you or the OP are implying. You are arguing that you should not need to fight for them. And in an ideal world - you would be right. Meanwhile in the real world - refusing to debate because the matter “has been long settled” does not deprive the other side from their vote.
-
Fair enough, now that I’m aware of the context I get the spirit of the post. Still I wouldn’t let sea lioning or whatever it’s called dissuade people from having conversations.
Gimme a fucking break, a marginalized person has no obligation to engage in a debate with someone who wants to continue marginalizing them and maybe do worse
I guess I’m missing the context here, I have no idea who these people are or why they’re marginalized. But generally speaking not engaging in civilized discourse does not help.
idk, it gets kinda tiring telling people I deserve rights and should not be discriminated against
That’s not a very interesting conversation, I will agree.
Issues that impact my life greatly are issues I WANT to talk about and debate with others.
Especially gender-war issues and sexism that have just about ruined my life at this point.
I only agree with the image that I greatly prefer to talk to people that have serious experience with these issues. Unfortunately those are the people least willing to talk about them, and I believe that this is a major barrier to our society solving these issues.
Can you not understand the difference between wanting to do something, and something being demanded of you?
Don’t feed the troll.
in this case it was necessary and constructive
Personally, I would consider making a public post about something on social media as an open invitation to talk about it in comments. It doesn’t excuse being rude or anything, but if it was about an issue in my life that I was comfortable sharing, I would expect others to appreciate giving and receiving perspective if they didn’t specify otherwise.
Not sure who would be demanding anything in this scenario. People choose to comment or not, including the OP. Everyone is communicating only as much as they feel comfortable doing, unless there’s context I’m missing.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
Removed by mod
You also don’t get what me nor op is saying evidently.
You aren’t the one doing the demanding.
You do whatever the fuck you want to do, debate as many fuckers as you fucking please, but when others demand marginalised people debate them, as is stated in OP we don’t owe them shit.
To respond more directly to your edit:
This marginalized person thinks that a conversation on these topics is the only way to keep the tensions from continuing to rise into violence.
A debate is better than violence. I demand we become willing to talk it out.
A debate is better than violence. I demand we become willing to talk it out.
Ah, so you’re an MLK’s proverbial white moderate, who doesn’t only think they get to tell other marginalised folks what they can do, but also what they can’t.
Good luck with that lmmfao
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
I’m starting to do the demanding, and I think we all should.
I do think that society owes ALL victims of rape and sexual abuse and sexism and harassment a god damn conversation (but maybe a different format than a debate) that everyone needs to be a part of if we want a productive solution.
For fucks sake, you do whatever you want.
Marginalised people don’t owe anyone shit, not justification for existing, not reasoning as to why people shouldn’t oppress us, NOTHING
It is the people doing the oppressing who need to expend their own fucking time and energy in to educating themselves from the vast pool of knowledge that already exists about our issues and how they contribute to them (one way being this demand being discussed that you are so dead set on pretending doesn’t exist)
You want to contribute to that pool? Good for fucking you, but you don’t get to join the oppressors and demand your fellow marginalised people waste *our time energy and emotional labour doing anything.
I’m done here.
thank you for being here and defending the vital message of this post, friend 💛
I don’t see a demand to discuss these issues.
I see violent repression of discussing these issues.
So I respond by demanding that others discuss these issues.
Women and men are the majority sexes, and as a marginalized sex I demand that they be willing to start talking instead of being so dismissive.
Both people in the OP are trans. They’re asserting their right to just BE, not expend all their life energy constantly EXPLAINING, especially to malicious actors who barrage them with “discussion” that’s just digs in disguise.
Even if we owe it to them, we can’t demand it from them. We can’t demand they traumatize themselves further, or allow us to traumatize them further, which you’re very likely to do even if your intent is the opposite.
oh my gosh it’s you. :( even after our conversation you still made this comment? i… that’s just really sad. i definitely made the right choice in disengaging.
please take your time away to learn and grow as a person.
