I know i would go crazy eating the same bland flakes
I’m curious if this experiment includes hydrating with water
Good point it was assumed hydration would be included this just counts for nutritional needs
Oh boy, this is my field! Let me go do some math and I’ll get back to you in a couple hours.
EDIT: This is probably going to take a day or two. There’s a hell of a lot to break down here.
EDIT 2: This is an absolute fucker of a problem. Normally I’d just throw this into FoodWorks, but my academic access got yoinked (uni didn’t pay the license fees) so I’ve had to math it all out by hand. There may be mistakes. Since people are asking, I’ll put up what I have in this thread, but I’m not finished. Macronutrient balance and amino acids are still to come.
Disclaimers: I’m not from the States, so the RDIs I have might be slightly different, but probably not by much (except for folate). There are also a -lot- of interactions between nutrients that affect bioavailability, any one of which could be the subject of several research papers. I tend to get obsessive about these things but I refuse to go on that deep a dive because I’ll literally never stop.
I’m also not a dietician, I’m a nutrition postgrad. Some of this stuff falls more into dietician / biochemist territory which gets outside my expertise a bit.
Strap in, this is a long one.
So from the nutrition information panel (NIP) that I found on Amazon, one 40g cup contains:
140 Calories (586kJ), consisting of:
33g carbohydrates
3g protein
1g fatVitamin and mineral wise:
190mg sodium (8%AI)
4ug Vitamin D (20%RDI)
40mg calcium (2%RDI)
18mg iron (100%RDI)
150mg potassium (4%RDI)
235ug Folate (100%RDI) – Note this is the US RDI.These next few don’t list actual amounts, so I’ve had to work backwards from %RDI to find the actual amount. Not to assume anything about OP, but I need to standardise on -something-, so given the 18mg RDI for iron above, I’m going to base the rest of it on women aged 19-50, because they have an 18mg/day RDI for iron. We’ll say our theoretical woman is reasonably active (PAL 1.8), about 5ft 3 ½ (1.61m) and 56.3kg for a daily calorie requirement of 2366, which will come up later.
10%RDI vitamin A (~70ug based on RDI=700ug)
100%RDI vitamin C (45mg)
100%RDI Vitamin E (7mg)
100%RDI Thiamin/B1 (1.1mg)
100%RDI Riboflavin/B2 (1.1mg)
100%RDI Niacin/B3 (14mg)
100%RDI Pyridoxine / B6 (1.3mg)
100%RDI Cobalamin / B12 (2.4ug)
100%RDI Pantothenic acid (4mg)
8%RDI Phosphorus (80mg based on RDI=1000mg)
10%RDI Magnesium (31mg based on RDI=310mg)
100%RDI Zinc (8mg)If you follow the instructions on the pack and eat it with 3/4cup (177.4mL) milk (in your case, whole milk), you also get:
118 Calories (495kJ), consisting of:
9.8g carbohydrates
6g protein
6.2g fatVitamin and mineral wise (some of these sound scary but you do actually need them in small amounts):
193mg calcium
1.2ug chromium
183mg chloride
0.011mg copper
41.9ug iodine
0.04mg iron
18mg magnesium
0.005mg manganese
5.3ug molybdenum
160mg phosphorus
259mg potassium
64ug selenium
64mg sodium
51mg sulphur
0.6mg zinc82ug retinol equivalents (Vitamin A)
0.041mg thiamin / B1
0.334mg riboflavin / B2
1.49mg Niacin equivalents / b3
0.64mg Pantothenic acid (b5)
0.04mg Pyridoxine (b6)
6.9ug Biotin (B7)
0.7ug cobalamin (B12)
6ug Folate
0.18ug vitamin D
0.16mg Vitamin ESo if we total all that up, per serve (that is, 40g with 3/4cup whole milk):
Total Macros Calories 258 Carbohydrate (g) 42.8 Protein (g) 9 Fat (g) 7.2 Vitamins A (ug) 152 C (mg) 45 D (ug) 0.18 E (mg) 7.16 B1 (mg 1.141 B2 (mg) 1.434 B3 (mg) 15.49 B5 (mg) 0.64 B6 (mg) 1.34 B7 (ug) 6.9 B12 (ug) 3.1 K (ug) * Minerals Calcium (mg) 233 Chromium (ug) 1.2 Chloride (mg) 183 Copper (mg) 0.011 Iodine (mg) 41.9 Iron (mg) 18.04 Magnesium (mg) 18 Manganese (mg) 0.005 Molybdenum (ug) 5.3 Phosphorus (mg) 160 Potassium (mg) 409 Selenium (ug) 64 Sodium (mg) 254 Sulphur (mg) 51 Zinc (mg) 0.6 Other Folate (ug) 241 Aside from water, which we’ll assume our subject can get as much of as she needs, humans basically need three things. Energy, material to build our bodies out of, and substances to help with the chemical reactions. Calories, macronutrients and vitamins and minerals.
Let’s start with calories. Based on an average calorie requirement of 2366, at 258cal per serve, our theoretical woman would need to eat 9.1 serves a day to meet her calorie needs. We’ll base the rest of the math on that. If we multiply the above out by 9.1, and compare to the RDIs, this is what it looks like.
Macros Total Per calorie needs RDI RDI% Calories 258 2366 10.9044801352494 Carbohydrate (g) 42.8 389.48 * Protein (g) 9 81.9 42.225 193.960923623446 Fat (g) 7.2 65.52 * Vitamins A (ug) 152 1383.2 700 197.6 C (mg) 45 409.5 45 910 D (ug) 0.18 1.638 5 32.76 E (mg) 7.16 65.156 7 930.8 B1 (mg 1.141 10.3831 1.1 943.918181818182 B2 (mg) 1.434 13.0494 1.1 1186.30909090909 B3 (mg) 15.49 140.959 14 1006.85 B5 (mg) 0.64 5.824 4 145.6 B6 (mg) 1.34 12.194 1.3 938 B7 (ug) 6.9 62.79 25 251.16 B12 (ug) 3.1 28.21 2.4 1175.41666666667 Minerals Calcium (mg) 233 2120.3 1000 212.03 Chromium (ug) 1.2 10.92 25 43.68 Chloride (mg) 183 1665.3 * Copper (mg) 0.011 0.1001 1.2 8.34166666666667 Iodine (mg) 41.9 381.29 150 254.193333333333 Iron (mg) 18.04 164.164 18 912.022222222222 Magnesium (mg) 18 163.8 310 52.8387096774193 Manganese (mg) 0.005 0.0455 5 0.91 Molybdenum (ug) 5.3 48.23 45 107.177777777778 Phosphorus (mg) 160 1456 1000 145.6 Potassium (mg) 409 3721.9 2800** Selenium (ug) 64 582.4 60 970.666666666667 Sodium (mg) 254 2311.4 460-920** Sulphur (mg) 51 464.1 * Zinc (mg) 0.6 5.46 8 68.25 Other Folate (ug) 241 2193.1 *: no data **: Adequate Intake (no RDI)
Part 2
I’ll start with vitamins, because that’s what the product is marketed based on. Vitamin A immediately stands out to me. There are two kinds of vitamins, water soluble and fat soluble. Vitamin B is a great example of a water soluble vitamin. If you’ve ever had a vitamin B supplement, then gone for a pee later, you might have noticed it being -really- yellow. That’s excess vitamin B. Because it’s water soluble, your body will just excrete any excess that you don’t need; there’s very little danger of it building up in your system.
Vitamins A, D, E and K, on the other hand, are fat-soluble. This means they get stored in your body and used as needed, so it is technically possible to overdose on these over a long enough timeline. Vitamin D and E poisoning from diet is pretty rare, but Vitamin A is kinda famous in nutrition circles. Every first year nutrition student learns about Vitamin A toxicity killing most of Mawson’s antarctic expedition. Those were pretty extreme circumstances, but so is living on nothing but fortified cereal.
1383.6ug is nearly twice the RDI. According to Horowitz, daily vitamin A over 50,000IU (1ug vitamin A = 3.33IU) can cause poisoning over time, with acute toxicity kicking in at a single dose of 1,000,000IU or more. Our 1383ug maths out to 4610IU. Probably won’t feel great, but it’s a fair way short of fatal.
Let’s do the other vitamins while we’re on the subject. The essential vitamins are A, C, D, E, K, and the B group. A, we’ve covered. C is water soluble, so we’re fine to blow right past the RDI there. For vitamin D, the maximum suggested is 4,000IU / day, where 1IU = 40ug. At 9.1 serves, we’re getting 1.63ug, or 65.2IU. Nowhere near the danger zone, but with an RDI of 5ug, we’re at risk of deficiency. Dietary vitamin D deficiency is unlikely to straight up kill a person, especially if if they’re getting enough sunlight, but is a risk factor for osteoporosis and other issues later down the line.
Vitamin E toxicity kicks in at about 1000mg / day, but can take years to develop. Our 9.1 serves gives 65mg. Fairly safe on that front.
Vitamin K isn’t mentioned in the NIP at all, and I get the feeling it isn’t well understood (the NRV section on it contains a lot of unknowns, and doesn’t list an RDI – 120ug / day is the US recommendation). However, there probably isn’t any significant amount in our cereal given the main sources are green leafy veg, some cheeses and plant oils. Vitamin K is important for blood clotting, with adverse effects starting at <10ug / day. Although humans can’t synthesise it ourselves, apparently our gut flora can, at least to some degree. I don’t think enough is known about this to really say how long it’d take to kill a person, but if our test subject starts bleeding profusely, we’ll know why.
B group vitamins we’re fine for. Like I said above, we can go way beyond RDI and the excess will be excreted. Even being short on B5 and B7 per serve works out okay; with the amount we’re eating, we’re getting 5.8mg / day B5, and 62.8mg / day B7. Above RDI in both cases, and we’ll just pee the surplus out.
So yeah, vitamin-wise, it’s plausible. Can’t say I’d recommend it though.
Let’s move on to minerals. Most of these we don’t need a ton of, apart from calcium, but they are important for catalysing certain chemical reactions in our bodies, like how iron helps bind oxygen to red blood cells. We’ll skip chloride, sulphur, potassium and sodium for the moment, those are special cases that need a bit more explanation.
We’re under for chromium, copper, manganese and zinc, and well over RDI for calcium, iodine, iron and seleneium. Just over for molybdenum and phosphorus.
Mineral deficiencies and excesses can be just as dangerous as vitamins. Iodine is necessary for thyroid function, but excess can cause bloody diarrhea and siezures, for example. Thankfully we’re well below the danger threshold of 1mg/day. Excess calcium isn’t considered particularly risky; there’s some evidence suggesting it’s a risk factor for brain lesions and vascular disease, which may start to become a problem at around 2000mg/day (we’re getting just over that), but probably depends on other pre-existing risk factors and there’s a lot of unanswered questions. The current advice is to stick to about half what we’re getting in this exercise, but I can’t really say when or if our test subject would die from a fatal brain lesion.
Selenium overdose can be straight up lethal (~3mg/kg bodyweight in rats), but we’re a fair way below that at 0.5mg / day total. However, this level has been flagged as probably being the maximum allowable intake in humans. Side effects of excess selenium include bad breath and teeth, arthritis, skin and nail issues, and liver dysfunction. Probably not immediately fatal, but pretty dicey and could get very unpleasant.
Despite getting over 900% RDI of iron, we’re not in much danger of excess there either; iron poisoning usually doesn’t happen just from diet; it’d take a huge dose all at once to be fatal. Especially since most of the iron here is non-heme (supplements and fortifications are usually made from plant sources because they’re cheaper), which doesn’t absorb anywhere near as well. Although the upper limit is 45mg from all sources, it’s unlikely to be deadly at least in the short term as the liver regulates iron uptake; excess will get excreted, for the most part. Worth noting that this system can get overwhelmed in the long term (similar to how excess sugar causes diabetes), and in the short term it can cause some pretty nasty digestive effects; constipation, abdominal pain, nausea, and in extreme cases stomach ulcers.
Molybdenum isn’t much concern, especially since we’re not much past RDI and excess from diet is usually excreted. Same with phosphorus; the upper safe limit is around 4000mg / day; below that it isn’t usually a concern in people with healthy kidneys.
Chromium is an interesting one, we don’t actually have much data on it. None of the studies into chromium requirements are considered good enough to base an RDI on, so the adequate intake (AI) is based on the amount that healthy people tend to get. Near as we can figure it does something with glucose and insulin. Deficiency is really rare in humans; you might end up with some blood sugar issues over a long enough timeline by not getting enough, but really this one is a big fat shrug.
Copper and manganese are similar. We don’t know enough about them to set an RDI. Copper deficiency is likewise pretty rare, but can cause vascular, skeletal and nervous system problems, as well as anaemia, believe it or not. Manganese deficiency is rare enough that we don’t actually know what it does, beyond skin and cholesterol issues. Another shrug here. There just isn’t enough data.
And finally Zinc. This one we do know about. Deficiency here can impair growth, pregnancy outcomes, (neither of which are particularly relevant in our case), but also importantly immune function. More sever deficiency can cause alopecia, diarrhoea, low appetite and lesions. Interestingly, high iron and calcium intake can decrease zinc absorption. Given the excessive amount of iron and calcium we’re getting here, this would be one to watch.
Part 3
Moving on to sulphur, sodium, chloride and potassium, this is actually getting a little bit outside my wheelhouse and further into dietitian / biochemist territory, so take all the following with a grain of salt (pun very much intended).
Sodium, potassium and chloride all serve really important functions in cellular metabolism, as well as being essential for the nervous system. A lot of public health messaging (and advertising) tends to focus on “sodium bad”, but it isn’t quite that simple. Most people on a western diet get too much, but you do actually need it to live. There’s also some research indicating that the ratio of these might be at least as important as actual amounts.
If we go by WHO recommendations for total sodium intake of less than 2000mg / day, we’re a little over at 2311.4mg. This is actually -way- better than the average USAmerican. Might run into some problems later down the line, but honestly better off than most western diets. The WHO also recommends a potassium intake of >3510mg / day, which puts the ratio at ≤ 0.6 mg/mg Na:K. With our potassium intake of 3721.9, we’re actually pretty much bang on. Surprisingly, no real issues here.
Chloride is tied quite tightly to sodium, given that our main source is salt (sodium chloride). EU food safety suggests an adequate intake of 3100mg / day, which we’re apparently getting about half of. However, I’m missing some data on the chloride content of the cereal here, the only data I have is from the whole milk. Given that chloride deficiency from diet is pretty rare in adults, I’m kinda going to hand wave this one and say we’re probably fine.
Since our main dietary source of sulphur is protein, sulphur ties heavily in to amino acid balance, which I’ll go into next.
Conclusion: Mineral-wise, this is inadvisable. Probably not fatal in the short term, but likely very unpleasant in the medium to long term. You’ll probably end up with some kind of digestive problems at the very least, bad breath, and maybe some skin and eye issues. Long term, maybe immune system and blood sugar issues. Note that I haven’t gone into carbohydrates and sugars yet, so that’s a maybe.
This is amazing and thank you for letting me know you updated. Definitely think the sugar and carbs will be the big problem
Do you have thoughts on meal replacements?
Plenty. I have actually tried soylent. Before I got into nutrition properly though and I haven’t done any kind of thorough analysis on them. In my personal experience they’re … fine? … flavour wise pretty bland and neutral, better if you blend them with some fruit or something. The sensation after having one was pretty weird though. Like, you’ve just taken in a ton of nutrition, but you don’t feel “full” – just kind of not hungry. It’s also a lot of liquid that hangs around in your stomach for longer than it feels like a liquid should.
Nutrition wise, off the top of my head, I don’t think they’re a bad idea, at least conceptually. Lifestyle wise they’re a pretty good solution to the “no time / skill to cook a decent meal” problem that a lot of people run into. They’re also good for those “need to eat but don’t want anything” moments. I’d hesitate to have them for every meal because IIRC they do lack a couple things (fibre, maybe?) but once or twice a week shouldn’t be a massive deal.
I’d have to do a ton more work to break down the actual nutrition, value for money and any other possible knock-on effects though. Off the top of my head there might be long-term issues with digestion and possibly oral health, but that’s just a guess.
This person better hurry. I’m almost out of Total cereal and I need to know if I should restock.
Updated. There’s more to come.
It’s been a couple of hours.
It sure has. I am still working on it. I had to go run a couple errands, and it turned out to be a much harder problem than I thought at first.
No pressure homie but its been a day so a lil pressure
Updated. There’s more to come.
It’s been a day. We pine for our hero. Will you answer the call?
Updated. There’s more to come.
👍
Updated. There’s more to come.
👏👏👏
Probably a long time. Humans are fairly resilient just gotta follow the rule of 3…
3 minutes without air 3 days without water 3 weeks without food
Equals dead. (Roughly give or take depending on environmental factors.)
Wait, it seems like we don’t want to follow the rule of 3.
The whole milk is really making this plausible
http://www.milkfacts.info/Nutrition Facts/Nutrient Content.htm
Probably live for years and years. Milk is sufficient for a baby to grow up after all.
The cereal is probably going to make the milk less healthy then milk alone. Carbs, and anti nutrients, and fibre - reducing how much nutrition you can absorb from the milk
chronometer for 2500kcal of whole milk
I know i would go crazy eating the same bland flakes
make it the total raisin bran variety and i could probably handle it for at least a month or two.
That discribes hell for me I hate raisins lol
Long enough that it’d be hard to rule diet as your cause of death. Your biggest consequences would be low energy and a weakened immune system. Not a great place to be, but you’re not gonna be so weak that you fall over to a stiff wind. It would take an untreated illness like the flu or pneumonia to actually kill you.
Probably long enough to make yourself slightly unwell, get a test from the doctor, and sue the company for not providing you with all the nutrients they claim! Lol
It says it has all the vitamins you need but probably not all the amino acids, but idk
That’s provided by the milk
Totally dont’t know
I would think for a very very long time until some vitamin deficiencies caught up to you.
Yeah but since they say they have 100% of all the vitamin daily needs which ones dare missing that can mess you up.
Maybe you don’t only need vitamins?
I wonder if this is the chewable version of what they give people in a coma