There’s plenty of things to do that is not about fighting government goons. Direct action doesn’t mean “take a rifle and fight”. It means supporting your fellow humans directly, instead of sending politicians letters and hoping they will actually listen to you.
When we’re at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, I’m pretty sure that ‘supporting my fellow humans’ isn’t what’s going to keep me out of the camps.
If you wait until you’re led to the camps to start thinking about doing anything other than voting, then it’s (probably) too late.
If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently ‘pure’ in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.
4 years ago you might have argued with me instead: “Have you considered maybe that NOT letting the state fall to the point where it’s conducting genocide might be a good idea?”
Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and it’s even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.
The state hasn’t ‘fallen’ to this point. That we’re even having this discussion on the national stage is a sign of the changing times, sad as that is.
And it would have sounded just as convincing. You can always think of the next worst thing though once fascism is there. Maybe in 4 years you’ll be telling me that I should vote for trans-genocide so that LGB can at least survive. Who knows…
Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed we’re descending into fascism from, right?
Holy shit, you have to be at least near my age. You can’t possibly confuse the state of our youth with conditions now.
Not at all. I keep telling you that you need to fight to not get stabbed or shot and you keep going “But if I don’t choose the knife, they might pull out a gun.” Instead of asking yourself “why the fuck am I ever bothering to consider whether a knife or gun is faster at killing me instead of trying to stop the killer”.
Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.
Authoritarian? sure. Bigoted? Certainly. But it wasn’t actively fascist.
…
Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more ‘fascist’, in your view, back then?
Let me ask you a different question. When is it enough? Is there any point, any government action which will convince you that you need to put your efforts into doing something other than voting? Is that point only when you’re personally being led to the pit?
My guy, I’m entirely in support of people forming orgs for voluntary association and organization outside of state power. But you also have to reckon with the fact that state power is immense currently, that non-state actors are not in a strong position currently, and that state power has the capacity to become much more repressive than it is currently.
My message is not “Vote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actions”. My message is “For fuck’s sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONE”
You want to talk long-term plans? I’m game. You want to talk creating counterbalances to state power through trade unions, syndicates, communes, self-defense organizations? I’m game to talk. But none of that contradicts “Do not let those who want the state to become WORSE into power” or “Fascism is BAD for organizing”.
When we’re at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, I’m pretty sure that ‘supporting my fellow humans’ isn’t what’s going to keep me out of the camps.
Indeed. Which is why I suggest you start doing it earlier.
If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently ‘pure’ in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.
I ain’t ceding shit. The only thing fascists and capitalists fear is power from below. It doesn’t matter how many “levels of power” they hold when guillotines are being erected.
Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and it’s even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.
No, back then there was plenty of plausible paths away from this for those who choose to believe in parliamentarism. We are now in a masks-off territory. US exterminating natives style. And yet parliamentarians still say voting works.
Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed we’re descending into fascism from, right?
Funny you should mention this., Do you know that pre-nazi germany had pretty good Trans-rights? Did you know that early revolutionary USSR had great gay rights? It’s funny if you think about how reactionary movements work, huh?
Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.
You’re not stopping the killer though. You’re just voting that they use the knife instead of the gun.
Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more ‘fascist’, in your view, back then?
My guy, Nixon resigned voluntarily from a scandal. You think this is how fascists act?
My message is not “Vote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actions”. My message is “For fuck’s sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONE”
You didn’t answer my question. At which point will you admit that voting didn’t work? Only just before the firing squad?
Indeed. Which is why I suggest you start doing it earlier.
Cool, I have a week and a half before the election. What direct action can I take to keep myself out of the camps, since voting is no longer pure enough for my high-minded ideology?
I ain’t ceding shit. The only thing fascists and capitalists fear is power from below. It doesn’t matter how many “levels of power” they hold when guillotines are being erected.
…
Do you remember how the guillotines were erected?
Do you think they were just magicked into existence?
Funny you should mention this., Do you know that pre-nazi germany had pretty good Trans-rights?
You would think this would be a point in favor of not letting the state fall into fascism, even considering that Weimar Germany was far from trans-friendly and banned trans-related materials from the Institute for Sexual Science from being distributed.
Did you know that early revolutionary USSR had great gay rights? It’s funny if you think about how reactionary movements work, huh?
Again, this would seem like a really good reason to not allow fascism to take over the state.
No, back then there was plenty of plausible paths away from this for those who choose to believe in parliamentarism. We are now in a masks-off territory. US exterminating natives style. And yet parliamentarians still say voting works.
What was the plausible path away from this with a rabidly pro-Israel US public, again?
My guy, Nixon resigned voluntarily from a scandal. You think this is how fascists act?
Nixon resigned only after his own party told him the political fallout would be too great for them to bother backing him.
Are we really going on the position that Nixon wasn’t fascist as fuck? I’d like to be clear on the matter, since you haven’t specified any actual issues.
You’re not stopping the killer though. You’re just voting that they use the knife instead of the gun.
Yes, which buys me more time to act against him.
It takes next to nothing to ensure the killer uses the knife instead of the gun. Yet you insist that the only moral option is to let the killer choose his own weapon, and then nobly martyr yourself on the .50 cal and call it resistance.
You didn’t answer my question. At which point will you admit that voting didn’t work? Only just before the firing squad?
What criteria are you putting here for voting not working? As I’ve already outlined that fascism will come quicker without participation of left-elements in voting, and your only response has been “Yes, well, you’re still dying slowly”, I’m not really sure you’re ‘getting’ what ‘buying time’ means.
Cool, I have a week and a half before the election. What direct action can I take to keep myself out of the camps, since voting is no longer pure enough for my high-minded ideology?
You think the camps are opening straight after the election? Come on, this takes time.
As for action, anything which is available to you. Even providing sysadmin support for orgs would be something one can do.
Do you remember how the guillotines were erected?
Do you think they were just magicked into existence?
Not quite sure what point you’re trying to make against my analogy here.
You would think this would be a point in favor of not letting the state fall into fascism, even considering that Weimar Germany was far from trans-friendly and banned trans-related materials from the Institute for Sexual Science from being distributed.
The point I am making is that there’s always progress and reaction growing together in capitalism due to the increasing inequality. The fact that progress is happening doesn’t mean the society isn’t growing more and more fascist.
What was the plausible path away from this with a rabidly pro-Israel US public, again?
What does that have to do with the point I was making?
Again, this would seem like a really good reason to not allow fascism to take over the state.
You realize those gay rights came from below against the wishes of then, state? Much like the gay and civil rights came from below in the USA against the wishes of the state and capital? Funny how only direct action keeps getting the goods, innit?
Nixon resigned only after his own party told him the political fallout would be too great for them to bother backing him.
Are we really going on the position that Nixon wasn’t fascist as fuck? I’d like to be clear on the matter, since you haven’t specified any actual issues.
It doesn’t matter if Nixon would love to be a dictator. It matters if society was ready to accept fascism, which USA wasn’t back then, but is now.
Yes, which buys me more time to act against him.
It also legitimizes your stabbing, since you voted for it. So why would anyone help you stop it. And anyway, you don’t have any plan to stop it.
It takes next to nothing to ensure the killer uses the knife instead of the gun. Yet you insist that the only moral option is to let the killer choose his own weapon, and then nobly martyr yourself on the .50 cal and call it resistance.
One has to ask themselves, why would the killer actually give you a choice in the matter. What is the benefit to the killer to killing you slowly. This is the question you don’t want to face.
What criteria are you putting here for voting not working?
Is your society doing genocide when it wasn’t before? Is your society on the threshold of masks-off fascism when it wasn’t before? Is inequality increasing or decreasing? Are working class people’s lives improving or not? You know the answers to all these, but you choose to limit yourself in thinking that things were somehow improving because some things were getting better.
You think the camps are opening straight after the election? Come on, this takes time.
Okay. What direct action can I take to keep me out of the camps between now and Trump coming into power?
As for action, anything which is available to you. Even providing sysadmin support for orgs would be something one can do.
That would strengthen the orgs, which is a good thing to do.
It would not keep me out of the camps unless you have some delusion that American society is going to make a 180 based on my actions in the next few months.
Affecting change takes years. Generations. Which is why it’s important to fight for change now, and why it’s important to buy ourselves that time to fight for it.
Not quite sure what point you’re trying to make against my analogy here.
The executions of the French Revolution were enabled by the capture of the state apparatus. Control of the state is absolutely a useful tool, and rejecting democracy as a means of acquiring control, or denying enemies control, is nothing short of foolishness. And certainly the French Revolution didn’t occur all in a moment. Revolution is only as powerful as the opinions backing it - right now, what do you see in the American people as regarding opinions towards your ideology? You really think you’ve got a shot right now?
Make the vote. It’s a day of your fucking life, at most. It buys you extra years to build what you need to build; to educate who you need to educate.
Don’t let fascism win because of apathy towards who controls the state. Who controls the state is important, even if you don’t like that it is.
The point I am making is that there’s always progress and reaction growing together in capitalism due to the increasing inequality. The fact that progress is happening doesn’t mean the society isn’t growing more and more fascist.
So by that logic, society has been getting more fascist effectively every day since the 17th century, correct?
Is your society doing genocide when it wasn’t before?
My society isn’t doing genocide when it wasn’t before. It remains backing a genocidal ethnostate. It was backing a genocidal ethnostate before. It was backing a genocidal ethnostate since before I was born. Funny enough, my society was doing genocide itself, and not that long ago - but that’s no longer occurring. Are we less fascist?
Is your society on the threshold of masks-off fascism when it wasn’t before?
… how can that be a criteria for fascism? That’s recursive.
Is inequality increasing or decreasing?
Increased slightly in the US - GINI increased from 36ish to 40ish.
Are working class people’s lives improving or not?
Yes, absolutely. That people’s lives are not improving enough is a different issue.
You know the answers to all these, but you choose to limit yourself in thinking that things were somehow improving because some things were getting better.
You’re operating from the axiom that society is getting more fascist continually, despite the logical absurdity of that considering both US and world history, and the mechanisms you’ve proposed, and are desperately searching for evidence to back that up, instead of the reverse. Evidence should shape your opinion; your opinions should not shape the evidence you accept.
What does that have to do with the point I was making?
That there was no plausible path away, contrary to your claim?
You keep asserting there is a path away without the groundwork being lain.
You realize those gay rights came from below against the wishes of then, state?
What rights did they get against the wishes of the state, again?
Much like the gay and civil rights came from below in the USA against the wishes of the state and capital?
… you do remember where most gay rights progress happened in this country, right?
Funny how only direct action keeps getting the goods, innit?
Oh, I wasn’t aware direct action was what elected numerous liberal state legislatures and appointed liberal justices to the Supreme Court, silly me. I thought they were elected or something. Silly me. I guess we are living in an anarchist commune, contrary to my initial beliefs.
It doesn’t matter if Nixon would love to be a dictator. It matters if society was ready to accept fascism, which USA wasn’t back then, but is now.
So fascism is when the dictator is untouchable. That’s the only criteria for fascism. Great. Guess Pinochet wasn’t a fascist either.
It also legitimizes your stabbing, since you voted for it. So why would anyone help you stop it.
This is the same stupid spiritual approach to politics that MLs spout. Sorry for being too much of a sinner for the anarchists to let into heaven.
And anyway, you don’t have any plan to stop it.
… because I advocate for voting for the knife… I have no plan to stop it.
Okay. Thanks for being a mind-reader, but apparently not a text-reader where I advocating for the creation and strengthening of alternate bases of power to the state.
One has to ask themselves, why would the killer actually give you a choice in the matter. What is the benefit to the killer to killing you slowly. This is the question you don’t want to face.
Because the metaphor falls apart when you start asking questions of motivation, because the state is not some single satanic entity for your paragnosticism to oppose. The state consists of numerous and opposing forces, many of which can be played against each other, and most of whom do not share goals. It’s the same delusion as treating ‘capital’ as one thinking, malicious class entity instead of a disparate group of interests - something even fucking Stalin recognized the absurdity of.
My guy, I grew up listening to my grandfather’s tales of working in a factory; my mother likewise worked in a factory, and though miserable, had a very different experience that I grew up listening to her talk about. If you want, we can discuss harder data points - hours worked per year, pay, healthcare, safety standards, worker protections, sexual harassment…
This is such a fucking privileged liberal take. Whatever, keep believing the lives of the working class are improving until the same working class votes the fascists in, out of sheer desperation. That’ll work…
So you don’t want to talk harder data points, because that might confront you with the fact that politics aren’t spiritual manichaean bullshit, and instead require an analysis of the complex interactions of conflicting power bases. Also, the idea that the working class is voting fascists in ‘out of sheer desperation’ is an insanely city-liberal take, for the record. You may as well have said that after having breakfast at some rural diner and writing an op-ed waxing poetic about the beauty of the simple rural life a month before the election.
I understand the obsessive materialism of modernism is (rightly) out-of-vogue, but retreating to a positively medieval worldview of political ideology is not the solution.
When we’re at the point where people are being rounded up for death camps, I’m pretty sure that ‘supporting my fellow humans’ isn’t what’s going to keep me out of the camps.
If you insist on ceding all levers of power to fascists except those which are sufficiently ‘pure’ in your eyes, your society will be led to the camps much faster.
Four years ago we were supporting Israel, which was conducting genocide then as surely as it is now, and with much broader support for its genocide in the US population. Go back eight years, and it’s even worse. 20 years, the numbers are horrific.
The state hasn’t ‘fallen’ to this point. That we’re even having this discussion on the national stage is a sign of the changing times, sad as that is.
Oh, like how LGBT rights have been on the decline in the past half-century because of what incredible speed we’re descending into fascism from, right?
Holy shit, you have to be at least near my age. You can’t possibly confuse the state of our youth with conditions now.
Because dying slower gives you more time to stop the killer. Dying quicker does nothing.
…
Would you like to outline to me the conditions that are fascist now that were not equally or more ‘fascist’, in your view, back then?
My guy, I’m entirely in support of people forming orgs for voluntary association and organization outside of state power. But you also have to reckon with the fact that state power is immense currently, that non-state actors are not in a strong position currently, and that state power has the capacity to become much more repressive than it is currently.
My message is not “Vote, and only vote, or only do government-approved political actions”. My message is “For fuck’s sake, AT LEAST vote against fascism, if for no other reason than getting fascism quicker helps NO ONE”
You want to talk long-term plans? I’m game. You want to talk creating counterbalances to state power through trade unions, syndicates, communes, self-defense organizations? I’m game to talk. But none of that contradicts “Do not let those who want the state to become WORSE into power” or “Fascism is BAD for organizing”.
Indeed. Which is why I suggest you start doing it earlier.
I ain’t ceding shit. The only thing fascists and capitalists fear is power from below. It doesn’t matter how many “levels of power” they hold when guillotines are being erected.
No, back then there was plenty of plausible paths away from this for those who choose to believe in parliamentarism. We are now in a masks-off territory. US exterminating natives style. And yet parliamentarians still say voting works.
Funny you should mention this., Do you know that pre-nazi germany had pretty good Trans-rights? Did you know that early revolutionary USSR had great gay rights? It’s funny if you think about how reactionary movements work, huh?
You’re not stopping the killer though. You’re just voting that they use the knife instead of the gun.
My guy, Nixon resigned voluntarily from a scandal. You think this is how fascists act?
You didn’t answer my question. At which point will you admit that voting didn’t work? Only just before the firing squad?
Cool, I have a week and a half before the election. What direct action can I take to keep myself out of the camps, since voting is no longer pure enough for my high-minded ideology?
…
Do you remember how the guillotines were erected?
Do you think they were just magicked into existence?
You would think this would be a point in favor of not letting the state fall into fascism, even considering that Weimar Germany was far from trans-friendly and banned trans-related materials from the Institute for Sexual Science from being distributed.
Again, this would seem like a really good reason to not allow fascism to take over the state.
What was the plausible path away from this with a rabidly pro-Israel US public, again?
Nixon resigned only after his own party told him the political fallout would be too great for them to bother backing him.
Are we really going on the position that Nixon wasn’t fascist as fuck? I’d like to be clear on the matter, since you haven’t specified any actual issues.
Yes, which buys me more time to act against him.
It takes next to nothing to ensure the killer uses the knife instead of the gun. Yet you insist that the only moral option is to let the killer choose his own weapon, and then nobly martyr yourself on the .50 cal and call it resistance.
What criteria are you putting here for voting not working? As I’ve already outlined that fascism will come quicker without participation of left-elements in voting, and your only response has been “Yes, well, you’re still dying slowly”, I’m not really sure you’re ‘getting’ what ‘buying time’ means.
You think the camps are opening straight after the election? Come on, this takes time.
As for action, anything which is available to you. Even providing sysadmin support for orgs would be something one can do.
Not quite sure what point you’re trying to make against my analogy here.
The point I am making is that there’s always progress and reaction growing together in capitalism due to the increasing inequality. The fact that progress is happening doesn’t mean the society isn’t growing more and more fascist.
What does that have to do with the point I was making?
You realize those gay rights came from below against the wishes of then, state? Much like the gay and civil rights came from below in the USA against the wishes of the state and capital? Funny how only direct action keeps getting the goods, innit?
It doesn’t matter if Nixon would love to be a dictator. It matters if society was ready to accept fascism, which USA wasn’t back then, but is now.
It also legitimizes your stabbing, since you voted for it. So why would anyone help you stop it. And anyway, you don’t have any plan to stop it.
One has to ask themselves, why would the killer actually give you a choice in the matter. What is the benefit to the killer to killing you slowly. This is the question you don’t want to face.
Is your society doing genocide when it wasn’t before? Is your society on the threshold of masks-off fascism when it wasn’t before? Is inequality increasing or decreasing? Are working class people’s lives improving or not? You know the answers to all these, but you choose to limit yourself in thinking that things were somehow improving because some things were getting better.
Okay. What direct action can I take to keep me out of the camps between now and Trump coming into power?
That would strengthen the orgs, which is a good thing to do.
It would not keep me out of the camps unless you have some delusion that American society is going to make a 180 based on my actions in the next few months.
Affecting change takes years. Generations. Which is why it’s important to fight for change now, and why it’s important to buy ourselves that time to fight for it.
The executions of the French Revolution were enabled by the capture of the state apparatus. Control of the state is absolutely a useful tool, and rejecting democracy as a means of acquiring control, or denying enemies control, is nothing short of foolishness. And certainly the French Revolution didn’t occur all in a moment. Revolution is only as powerful as the opinions backing it - right now, what do you see in the American people as regarding opinions towards your ideology? You really think you’ve got a shot right now?
Make the vote. It’s a day of your fucking life, at most. It buys you extra years to build what you need to build; to educate who you need to educate.
Don’t let fascism win because of apathy towards who controls the state. Who controls the state is important, even if you don’t like that it is.
So by that logic, society has been getting more fascist effectively every day since the 17th century, correct?
My society isn’t doing genocide when it wasn’t before. It remains backing a genocidal ethnostate. It was backing a genocidal ethnostate before. It was backing a genocidal ethnostate since before I was born. Funny enough, my society was doing genocide itself, and not that long ago - but that’s no longer occurring. Are we less fascist?
… how can that be a criteria for fascism? That’s recursive.
Increased slightly in the US - GINI increased from 36ish to 40ish.
Yes, absolutely. That people’s lives are not improving enough is a different issue.
You’re operating from the axiom that society is getting more fascist continually, despite the logical absurdity of that considering both US and world history, and the mechanisms you’ve proposed, and are desperately searching for evidence to back that up, instead of the reverse. Evidence should shape your opinion; your opinions should not shape the evidence you accept.
That there was no plausible path away, contrary to your claim?
You keep asserting there is a path away without the groundwork being lain.
What rights did they get against the wishes of the state, again?
… you do remember where most gay rights progress happened in this country, right?
Oh, I wasn’t aware direct action was what elected numerous liberal state legislatures and appointed liberal justices to the Supreme Court, silly me. I thought they were elected or something. Silly me. I guess we are living in an anarchist commune, contrary to my initial beliefs.
So fascism is when the dictator is untouchable. That’s the only criteria for fascism. Great. Guess Pinochet wasn’t a fascist either.
This is the same stupid spiritual approach to politics that MLs spout. Sorry for being too much of a sinner for the anarchists to let into heaven.
… because I advocate for voting for the knife… I have no plan to stop it.
Okay. Thanks for being a mind-reader, but apparently not a text-reader where I advocating for the creation and strengthening of alternate bases of power to the state.
Because the metaphor falls apart when you start asking questions of motivation, because the state is not some single satanic entity for your paragnosticism to oppose. The state consists of numerous and opposing forces, many of which can be played against each other, and most of whom do not share goals. It’s the same delusion as treating ‘capital’ as one thinking, malicious class entity instead of a disparate group of interests - something even fucking Stalin recognized the absurdity of.
Check please!
Sorry but I don’t have time for this sort of deluded discussion.
My guy, I grew up listening to my grandfather’s tales of working in a factory; my mother likewise worked in a factory, and though miserable, had a very different experience that I grew up listening to her talk about. If you want, we can discuss harder data points - hours worked per year, pay, healthcare, safety standards, worker protections, sexual harassment…
This is such a fucking privileged liberal take. Whatever, keep believing the lives of the working class are improving until the same working class votes the fascists in, out of sheer desperation. That’ll work…
So you don’t want to talk harder data points, because that might confront you with the fact that politics aren’t spiritual manichaean bullshit, and instead require an analysis of the complex interactions of conflicting power bases. Also, the idea that the working class is voting fascists in ‘out of sheer desperation’ is an insanely city-liberal take, for the record. You may as well have said that after having breakfast at some rural diner and writing an op-ed waxing poetic about the beauty of the simple rural life a month before the election.
I understand the obsessive materialism of modernism is (rightly) out-of-vogue, but retreating to a positively medieval worldview of political ideology is not the solution.