That’s still patriarchy, my guy. They’ve been raised to be complicit in a system that doesn’t benefit them, and they’re perpetuating it because they don’t like how it feels to step outside of it.
I disagree that it’s fair to call that patriarchy, but that’s beside the point. The failure of feminists to take any action against it or even to sound like they care is what I was getting at. That is by definition not patriarchy, it’s the indifference of feminism.
Feminism may not be directly attacking men, but it’s also not helping men except as an occasional side effect of helping women. Men have no acceptable paradigm to help them navigate society.
Any attempt at “Men’s theory” or some such gets simultaneously attacked by feminists and misogynists and quickly gets subsumed into one of those two camps.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards. I guess what you’re effectively saying is that Feminists are affected by patriarchy and it’s standards too I guess, which is obvious given they’re human and most humans aren’t perfect.
Edit Addendum: I also think why it’s hard sometimes for some feminists to acknowledge the problems men face, under the standards that the social system and hierarchy that patriarchy sets and is, is that men often play such a big role in the preservation and continuation of patriarchy, that the idea of even talking about or blaming some women(the gender which has faced the biggest brunt of the abuse from patriarchy) for also upholding the system of patriarchy, gets hard. It feels almost as if you were victim blaming or punching down, even though such aspects of patriarchy(that is the idea of women’s role in upholding the continuation of it) must be addressed.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards.
I mean dude think about it. You are almost literally saying that any bad things feminists do are because of the patriarchy. Any failings in feminist theory is because of patriarchy. Any lack of concern for men, any failure to worry about the lack of concern for men, it’s all patriarchy.
Does that really ring true to you? I mean, if patriarchy is such a nebulous thing that it’s subconsciously affecting the very things that feminists choose to worry about…then we should be able to lay all of feminism’s successes at the feet of patriarchy too, right? Women’s sufferage? Patriarchy. Freedom of choice? Patriarchy. Women in the workplace? Patriarchy. You may think it was feminism, but clearly the invisible guiding hand of patriarchy is influencing feminists.
Or is it only patriarchy when it’s something bad?
Look, I’m not saying there’s no such thing as patriarchy. Or misogyny. I absolutely believe that there are systemic injustices in the world perpetrated against women en masse. I also believe that our historically patriarchal society has caused a level of male-centric bias in our world.
I object to the complete and total failure of feminism to admit to any negative effects whatsoever. Feminism is not self-reflective and therefore can never be egalitarian. It will always be a struggle for one group against another.
I think it does ring true. I think you can also say that, in a way, feminism successes do come from patriarchy, that is to say-
It is built upon patriarchy, through the analysis, critique and solutions offered by feminists to it.
What you are critiquing is the hypocrisy and personal individual failings of feminists, which is valid, but is another problem entirely I feel.
Perhaps you are saying these hypocrises and personal individual failings affect alot more feminists than feminists themselves would like to admit? Or perhaps that these hypocrises and personal individual failings have poisoned feminism and it’s touted ideals? That feminists who fail in these ways affect the ideology of feminism and that THIS feminism, the “feminism of hypocrites” is what now pervades majority feminist thought?
That’s still patriarchy, my guy. They’ve been raised to be complicit in a system that doesn’t benefit them, and they’re perpetuating it because they don’t like how it feels to step outside of it.
I disagree that it’s fair to call that patriarchy, but that’s beside the point. The failure of feminists to take any action against it or even to sound like they care is what I was getting at. That is by definition not patriarchy, it’s the indifference of feminism.
Feminism may not be directly attacking men, but it’s also not helping men except as an occasional side effect of helping women. Men have no acceptable paradigm to help them navigate society.
Any attempt at “Men’s theory” or some such gets simultaneously attacked by feminists and misogynists and quickly gets subsumed into one of those two camps.
Bro, you’re almost there…
Get me over the finish line then.
He/she already tried.
All I see is “everything bad is patriarchy, everything good is feminism” and a steadfast avoidance of the specific issue I brought up.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards. I guess what you’re effectively saying is that Feminists are affected by patriarchy and it’s standards too I guess, which is obvious given they’re human and most humans aren’t perfect.
Edit Addendum: I also think why it’s hard sometimes for some feminists to acknowledge the problems men face, under the standards that the social system and hierarchy that patriarchy sets and is, is that men often play such a big role in the preservation and continuation of patriarchy, that the idea of even talking about or blaming some women(the gender which has faced the biggest brunt of the abuse from patriarchy) for also upholding the system of patriarchy, gets hard. It feels almost as if you were victim blaming or punching down, even though such aspects of patriarchy(that is the idea of women’s role in upholding the continuation of it) must be addressed.
I mean dude think about it. You are almost literally saying that any bad things feminists do are because of the patriarchy. Any failings in feminist theory is because of patriarchy. Any lack of concern for men, any failure to worry about the lack of concern for men, it’s all patriarchy.
Does that really ring true to you? I mean, if patriarchy is such a nebulous thing that it’s subconsciously affecting the very things that feminists choose to worry about…then we should be able to lay all of feminism’s successes at the feet of patriarchy too, right? Women’s sufferage? Patriarchy. Freedom of choice? Patriarchy. Women in the workplace? Patriarchy. You may think it was feminism, but clearly the invisible guiding hand of patriarchy is influencing feminists.
Or is it only patriarchy when it’s something bad?
Look, I’m not saying there’s no such thing as patriarchy. Or misogyny. I absolutely believe that there are systemic injustices in the world perpetrated against women en masse. I also believe that our historically patriarchal society has caused a level of male-centric bias in our world.
I object to the complete and total failure of feminism to admit to any negative effects whatsoever. Feminism is not self-reflective and therefore can never be egalitarian. It will always be a struggle for one group against another.
I think it does ring true. I think you can also say that, in a way, feminism successes do come from patriarchy, that is to say-
It is built upon patriarchy, through the analysis, critique and solutions offered by feminists to it.
What you are critiquing is the hypocrisy and personal individual failings of feminists, which is valid, but is another problem entirely I feel.
Perhaps you are saying these hypocrises and personal individual failings affect alot more feminists than feminists themselves would like to admit? Or perhaps that these hypocrises and personal individual failings have poisoned feminism and it’s touted ideals? That feminists who fail in these ways affect the ideology of feminism and that THIS feminism, the “feminism of hypocrites” is what now pervades majority feminist thought?