Found the hasbara bot. Just for the record states have no eight to exist. This concept doesn’t exist.
Let’s assume for a second though that states would have such a right. When Nazi Germany committed genocide, hell yeah people said that state shouldn’t exist and they were right to say so. Apartheid South Africa, that state also shouldn’t have existed in the first place.
To spin this further, the settler colonial states that got established through genocide on the indigenous population, e.g. the USA, Canada and Australia should have never existed in the first place. It’s not so difficult.
Hence, why should I agree to an anyway non existing right for a settler colonial state to exist that can only keep existing through genociding the indigenous population and otherwise keeping it under an apartheid regime.
I think you have confused the structure and implementation of a state as a culture with a collective identity of people located within a rough geographic area.
A state’s right to exist is not the right to act a certain way, but the right to not be wiped off the map. A colonial state colonizing is only wrong because they are conquering other states that had their own right to exist. Otherwise there would be no reason to say that Palestine should exist, and Palestine should absolutely exist.
So do I understand correctly that colonizing most of Africa, and e.g. the USA, Canada or Australia was not wrong? I’m not aware of indigenous people being organized in states. Hence, the colonization must have been okay by your logic?
The populations of Africa and the Americas had all kinds of states! The Mayan culture was a state or a collection of city states. Although most media about Native Americans focus on the tribes that were more nomadic, there were tons of tribes that had established cities and locations that were their territory all throughout the two continents Hell, even nomadic cultures tend to occupy a space even though they move a lot within it.
Africa and Australia had a lot too, I just don’t know them off the top of my head. Colonizers destroyed as much of their cultures as possible to erase their identity as a culture and state.
You have fallen for the colonizer’s myths of unorganized native populations, which they used to justify conquering so that they could “civilize” those populations. The colonizers were absolutely wrong.
Alright got it. So for example were the Mayan states part of the UN? What kind of state were they organized in? What about people colonized by the Mayans?
So are established cities and locations and being nomadic without having a state designated by the UN enough for being protected against colonization?
I have no idea what you are trying to get at, but I have repeatedly said colonizing is wrong and countries can stop doing wrong things without needing to stop existing so if that isn’t clear enough I don’t know what to tell you.
Yeah I’m just really confused by how you’re at the same time able to oppose colonialism as a concept but also not willing to acknowledge that whatever happened to other people is happening in the exact same way to Palestinians. Explicitly Palestinians being colonized by the Zionists. If it was wrong in Africa, in the Americas, in Australia, it’s wrong in Palestine too.
Colonies can never exist without oppression, dispossession and dehumanization of the colonized, and consequently a feeling of superiority, otherwise the whole thing won’t work.
It doesn’t matter at all that Israel is a Jewish state. It is a settler colonial state and settler colonial states should not exist per se.
Yeah I’m just really confused by how you’re at the same time able to oppose colonialism as a concept but also not willing to acknowledge that whatever happened to other people is happening in the exact same way to Palestinians.
You are confused because you keep ignoring my statements that the same thing is happening to Palestinians, apparently because I don’t agree that the solution is wiping a country off a map.
Instead, they should stop being a colonial state which was the solution to all of the other colonial states.
Look I don’t think it’s a productive way to come to some kind of agreement to ignore your statements, I just felt like you started out kinda strongly saying that it would be something specific to Israel that they should stop existing because they committed genocide.
I recently listened to a talk by Ilan Pappé and what he said was both scary and very logical. Israel can only exist as a Jewish supremacist state. They want all of Palestine without Palestinians. They tried everything they could with Gaza, expelling people, „giving“ it to Egypt, establishing settlements, making it an open air prison. Nothing has worked to get rid of Palestinians, so this genocide is happening because they’re out of ideas.
And I think any state that acts like that or can only exist like that should not exist, period. What about the Israelis? They have a right to exist because they’re humans, but they would have to live in a democratic state (as opposed to the apartheid state they’re currently living in) and there would have to be equal rights for everyone.
Not that Palestinians are a cultural monolith but that would make them the majority of the population and that would also mean that Jewish Israelis would lose both power and privilege, something they would never accept. So the solution exists and it can exist without anyone being genocided but such a state would not be Israel anymore, for me that’s okay but for Zionists that’s impossible.
Found the hasbara bot. Just for the record states have no eight to exist. This concept doesn’t exist.
Let’s assume for a second though that states would have such a right. When Nazi Germany committed genocide, hell yeah people said that state shouldn’t exist and they were right to say so. Apartheid South Africa, that state also shouldn’t have existed in the first place.
To spin this further, the settler colonial states that got established through genocide on the indigenous population, e.g. the USA, Canada and Australia should have never existed in the first place. It’s not so difficult.
Hence, why should I agree to an anyway non existing right for a settler colonial state to exist that can only keep existing through genociding the indigenous population and otherwise keeping it under an apartheid regime.
I think you have confused the structure and implementation of a state as a culture with a collective identity of people located within a rough geographic area.
A state’s right to exist is not the right to act a certain way, but the right to not be wiped off the map. A colonial state colonizing is only wrong because they are conquering other states that had their own right to exist. Otherwise there would be no reason to say that Palestine should exist, and Palestine should absolutely exist.
So do I understand correctly that colonizing most of Africa, and e.g. the USA, Canada or Australia was not wrong? I’m not aware of indigenous people being organized in states. Hence, the colonization must have been okay by your logic?
The populations of Africa and the Americas had all kinds of states! The Mayan culture was a state or a collection of city states. Although most media about Native Americans focus on the tribes that were more nomadic, there were tons of tribes that had established cities and locations that were their territory all throughout the two continents Hell, even nomadic cultures tend to occupy a space even though they move a lot within it.
Africa and Australia had a lot too, I just don’t know them off the top of my head. Colonizers destroyed as much of their cultures as possible to erase their identity as a culture and state.
You have fallen for the colonizer’s myths of unorganized native populations, which they used to justify conquering so that they could “civilize” those populations. The colonizers were absolutely wrong.
Alright got it. So for example were the Mayan states part of the UN? What kind of state were they organized in? What about people colonized by the Mayans?
So are established cities and locations and being nomadic without having a state designated by the UN enough for being protected against colonization?
I have no idea what you are trying to get at, but I have repeatedly said colonizing is wrong and countries can stop doing wrong things without needing to stop existing so if that isn’t clear enough I don’t know what to tell you.
Yeah I’m just really confused by how you’re at the same time able to oppose colonialism as a concept but also not willing to acknowledge that whatever happened to other people is happening in the exact same way to Palestinians. Explicitly Palestinians being colonized by the Zionists. If it was wrong in Africa, in the Americas, in Australia, it’s wrong in Palestine too.
Colonies can never exist without oppression, dispossession and dehumanization of the colonized, and consequently a feeling of superiority, otherwise the whole thing won’t work.
It doesn’t matter at all that Israel is a Jewish state. It is a settler colonial state and settler colonial states should not exist per se.
You are confused because you keep ignoring my statements that the same thing is happening to Palestinians, apparently because I don’t agree that the solution is wiping a country off a map.
Instead, they should stop being a colonial state which was the solution to all of the other colonial states.
Look I don’t think it’s a productive way to come to some kind of agreement to ignore your statements, I just felt like you started out kinda strongly saying that it would be something specific to Israel that they should stop existing because they committed genocide.
I recently listened to a talk by Ilan Pappé and what he said was both scary and very logical. Israel can only exist as a Jewish supremacist state. They want all of Palestine without Palestinians. They tried everything they could with Gaza, expelling people, „giving“ it to Egypt, establishing settlements, making it an open air prison. Nothing has worked to get rid of Palestinians, so this genocide is happening because they’re out of ideas.
And I think any state that acts like that or can only exist like that should not exist, period. What about the Israelis? They have a right to exist because they’re humans, but they would have to live in a democratic state (as opposed to the apartheid state they’re currently living in) and there would have to be equal rights for everyone.
Not that Palestinians are a cultural monolith but that would make them the majority of the population and that would also mean that Jewish Israelis would lose both power and privilege, something they would never accept. So the solution exists and it can exist without anyone being genocided but such a state would not be Israel anymore, for me that’s okay but for Zionists that’s impossible.
Hope you understand now where I’m getting at.