Are orgies and homo sex in style again?
Reminds me of the biblical scenes from A Clockwork Orange. Some people think history is neat and the Romans had alot of history. Some people wish they could conquer Gaul and own sex slaves.
Their kindred love of lead poisoning
That explains why they hate my reaction to seeing a cybertruck. I hold my thumb out horizontally, until I know I have their attention. I then rotate it to a thumbs down. The sheer amount of road rage, at having had ancient roman iconography used against them, warms the cold dead cockles of my heart.
👍
No, 👎. Lol
Only tidbit I have about that is the thumbs down meant you weren’t allowed to kill the person despite how the movies play it but I didn’t take latin long enough to confirm that.
That’s correct, but I suspect they either don’t know that, or are the type that wouldn’t see that as approval for a good fight, but would see it as the denial of their “righteous kill.”
If only we could throw those criminals against basic decency and aesthetics to the lions, like the good old days!
Or at least enter the Cybertruck in a demolition derby so it can serve some purpose.
I thought almost everyone had a mild obsession with Romans
I prefer to romanticize the three kingdoms period of China.
Turns out the mild obsession was really with tits.
I mean, they’re kinda neat but I don’t consider them all that important to modern day life.
I think they were evil. They kind of invented the idea of conquering other civilizations, and were not cool about it at all
The world would probably be a much better place without them
You have a very Euro-centric view of the world.
We’re literally talking about “the West” right now… The whole damn conversation is euro-central
They kind of invented the idea of conquering other civilizations,
I, uh, got some really bad news for you about the pre-Roman world
No one really did conquering - they would take land, take slaves, occasionally take buildings
But Vikings were Vikings, even if they occupy a settlement, the people of the settlement do not become Vikings
When Rome conquered a place, they’d levy most of the men into the legion, and when they finished their service they became Roman
Bruh, you’re thinking about Fallout, not Ancient Rome
Bruh, where do you think fiction cames from? It’s like 99% shit that has already happened, exaggerated and twisted in new ways
That’s not true about Danish colonization that happened to huge swaths of English and France, the whole Norman conquest of England was due to a Danish man having technically had a claim to the English throne because his dad was a Danish colonize of England.
Ok? When did the English become Danish? And the French?
Nobility was totally interrelated in Europe. This is just a thing that happened, it’s not the machinery of empire
Ok? When did the English become Danish?
… do you know where the term ‘English’ comes from?
Can you point to me on a map where the Anglo-Saxons came from?
Do you know what a ‘Briton’ is?
Easy.
The Anglo-Saxons originated from a mix of tribes from northern Germany and southern Scandinavia, primarily the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes. They began settling in Britain around 410 AD, following the decline of Roman rule, and their culture significantly influenced the development of early medieval England.
Notice how they displaced the original population. The British are the resulting mix. They did not become Dutch or proto-German, but they did use Roman roads and still have Roman structures
No one really did conquering - they would take land, take slaves,
… that’s what conquest is.
But Vikings were Vikings, even if they occupy a settlement, the people of the settlement do not become Vikings
… only because the Vikings were typically small numbers of warriors? And post-Roman, for that matter.
When Rome conquered a place, they’d levy most of the men into the legion, and when they finished their service they became Roman
That’s… not how it works.
First, the Legions were for citizens only. Non-citizens were not permitted to enlist.
Second, the Auxiliaries, what you’re probably thinking of, were partly conscripted, but mostly volunteer, and very selective about their recruits. In no reality would they have taken most of the men of a region.
Third, the process of Romanization was gradual and largely unenforced - the Romans did not care if the native provincials became Romans or kept their native culture. The Romans, in fact, held a worldview wherein other peoples were better at certain things than the Romans, and that this was a good thing, because it meant Rome could organize their superior efforts for the greater good of the Republic.
Fourth, most regions after Roman conquest retained a great deal of self-government, as the Romans did not want the trouble of overturning local practices, unless they interfered with something like collecting taxes.
Fifth, Roman conquest was rarely so simple as “The Romans have conquered this place now” - there were often many graduations of Roman control which regions went through, and few regions had the same journey. The moment of conquest you’re imagining, where the Legions march through after putting the enemy’s armies and leaders to the sword, is not very common.
Sixth, the process of ethnic cleansing and assimilation are both widely attested to in the pre-Roman world, by peoples much more brutal about it than the Romans.
You’re describing what I said with more words
The difference between Vikings (or wherever else, they’re just an example) and Romans is the assimilation. That’s why there were so many more Romans, because they constantly expanded what it meant to be Roman. There were concentric circles of Roman-ness starting with just the city inhabitants down to the newly conquered territory at the fringes
Also, Rome was around for a long time. Their practices changed drastically during that time. It ranged from much worse than what I described to completely peaceful assimilation.
But my real problem wasn’t the violence, it’s the wealth extraction… That model lived on through the holy Roman empire, then “the West”. There’s so many horrible knock on effects to this, ones we’re living through now
You’re describing what I said with more words
“Romans were the first to do conquest.”
“No, they weren’t.”
“You’re just saying what I said.”
???
The difference between Vikings (or wherever else, they’re just an example) and Romans is the assimilation.
… do… do you think pre-Roman peoples didn’t practice assimilation?
That’s why there were so many more Romans, because they constantly expanded what it meant to be Roman. There were concentric circles of Roman-ness starting with just the city inhabitants down to the newly conquered territory at the fringes
By the time that people on the fringes of the Empire were considered Romans, Romans had lost the cultural hegemony necessary for assimilation, which makes this a very dubious claim.
Also, Rome was around for a long time. Their practices changed drastically during that time. It ranged from much worse than what I described to completely peaceful assimilation.
I can honestly think of no period of Roman history in which the scenario you described was the norm.
But my real problem wasn’t the violence, it’s the wealth extraction… That model lived on through the holy Roman empire, then “the West”. There’s so many horrible knock on effects to this, ones we’re living through now
…
… do you think wealth extraction doesn’t predate the Romans? For that matter, you think the HRE is more rooted in Roman practice than Germanic practice? For that matter, you think the West demonstrates the most horrific form of wealth extraction in the modern day?
… do… do you think pre-Roman peoples didn’t practice assimilation?
Yes! That’s my whole point. Not literally - you seem caught up on the word conquest too - but the kind of institutional pattern of expansion and assimilation is what was different about Rome
There was war, there were other empires. People intermingled and intermixed, sometimes under rule from another group. There was assimilation, but in an organic process
Rome industrialized the process. They turned it into a mechanical process that has never stopped. It didn’t stop when the empire split, it didn’t stop when power shifted to the aristocracy of Europe, it didn’t stop as America rose as the latest empire after WW2
I do think the HRE was more Rome than Germanic - what language did they speak? Not Greek, Aramaic, or any Germanic language - it was Latin. And in the East you had the Byzantine empire doing the same damn thing, spreading soft influence to Eastern Europe
Christianity became a tool of Rome under Constantine. Jesus said we don’t need temples or coin. Jesus was born in the summer. Jews keep the Sabbath on Saturday. Jesus was represented by a fish, and died on the cross so that he could not be used as a tool of control against his people
Sol Invictus was born on December 25, Constantine declared the day of the sun as the day of rest. Sol Invictus is associated with gold. The cross is a symbol of Roman order
Constantine rebranded the Roman religion under Jesus’s name, and carefully picked it’s practices to control the people
The HRE kept control over the aristocracy through marriage, ceremony, and through relatives in the clergy. They let the kings have their kingdom while controlling the secret little club of European royalty. They held the legitimacy of all of them in Rome.
They also controlled the people directly. They were a parallel power structure. They had a ton of direct power until the 19th century, when things started shifting to mercantilism then capitol
And even now, a few family lines always seem to be the ones in power. The meeting places and the titles change, but each rising and falling empire goes back to Rome
Don’t say that in front of the Shahansha
Unfortunately this makes sense - the original Italian and German fascists were also obsessed with it.
Fascism weaponizes history by creating a narrative about past greatness that was lost because [ENEMY] took it away from them.
So for Italians, the Roman Empire was their past greatness for fascists (and where they got the name fascist from). For Germany, it makes less sense, but in their version of history ,the Holy Roman Empire was the “First Reich” so there’s somewhat a connection there.
For American fascists it makes less sense. While some Americans can trace their ethnicity to Italy (and therefore the Roman Empire) it doesn’t seem to be an Italian American thing. Probably it’s just due to Romans being ridiculously misogynistic and liking the aesthetics of it.
Mythologized history to serve their racist worldview:
Right, ancient Greece and Rome were actually quite diverse and the concept of “whiteness” didn’t have much meaning thousands of years ago. Race, as we know it, is a fairly recent category. But the far-right relies on this construct of Western civilization, which for them means white civilization and culture. So they craft a narrative that begins with Greece and Rome and then continues into the medieval period up through the emergence of modern Europe.
What’s funny is Rome and Greece (and probably every other ancient culture) mythologized their origin history, too, due to lack of history records from that far back, or just by plain human nature. Nothing new under the sun.
No. No. They were really decended from gods and raised by wolves. /S
Honestly the best explanations for Greek and thus Roman myth is a mix of patrical worship (story from dad, become from grandpa, from great grandpa, from ancestor, from the ancient, from myth, mixed with ruling caste families becomes our mythos).
That mixed with stories about concepts war, beauty, death, getting personified for story sake but then with enough personality now the afterlife is married and has a dog because his wife is on business trips all the time.
No. No. They were really decended from gods and raised by wolves. /S
Funny thing is, one of the key parts of Roman legend was also that their city was founded by a bunch of literal criminals and exiles that no one else wanted, and this was a theme that they constantly returned to - both positively (as in referring to the wisdom of Romulus in accepting outsiders of merit, whatever their reputation) and negatively (as in referring to Rome as the ‘cesspit of Romulus’, a place of base realities instead of high-minded ideals).
Really? !roughromanmemes@piefed.social seems to be mostly made of history nerds posting mostly stuff like this.
I’m definitely progressive in the vast majority of my political leanings and still enjoy memes about historical happenings from a modern perspective
I made and posted one about Cincinnatus a while back, giga chad perfect roman simply isn’t interested in seizing ultimate power. He’ll rather end your ass and go back to his farming
Well, it’s lemmy.
Just a few more because these are pretty great
Salad Man did so much for us 😭
So many innovative salads that will never be 😭
Caesar salad is just another thing that the white man stole from a person of color. Now everyone thinks it was Julius that made the salad instead of some rando from Mexico. What fools we have become.
It’s a meme based on widespread misconception. Chill out bro.
OF THIS I AM ASSURED
More seriously, there is a strange attachment of fascists to the Roman Empire. A big part of this is that, before the 1930s, nearly everyone with an education in the West was, in effect, either a Graecoboo or a Romaboo. When the fascists came about, first in the 1920s, and then in the 30s, they leaned hard into the Roman aesthetic, both because of its expansionist implications and the symbolism that retained great influence in the pre-existing societies they sought to manipulate. This… both discredited a lot of Roman symbolism amongst non-fascists, and gave fascists a lasting taste for the symbolism, since it was used in the only period the fucks had real power over a significant portion of the world.
However, RoughRomanMemes, both the original on R*ddit (sadly could not convince the other mods to check out the Fediverse at the time of the original exodus, though I also wasn’t super-close with them) and the one on here ran by me, are ardently anti-fascist.
Rome was (largely) doing the best it could with the limited material and philosophical resources it had - we love that! Show me those proto-rights, that early rise in living standards, that conception of universal humanity! I’m here to share a shit-sponge with my fellow plebs and talk about the grain dole!
Fascists are universally doing the worst they can with all the material and philosophical resources of human history at their goddamn fingertips - fuck them.
See the “Roman salute”. Not actually Roman, but instead invented for a film about Romans. Italian fascists liked it and adopted it. Then the Nazis liked it and adopted it from the Italian fascists.
It doesn’t matter that it’s not actually Roman, it’s still something that the fascists can do in order to pretend to be Roman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_salute
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_the_Horatii
TIL
Invented for a painting, but your point stands.
Yes, thank you. Not invented for a film, but the film is where the fascists took it from.
You have my xylospongium.
Beautiful
Really?
No. The link is to a ~6 year old advertisement. The author interviewed was using weird American culture war bullshit from 2019 to try to get you to buy their book.
Nuts to that. History belongs to all of us, and anyone can poke fun at the Romans if they want to.
Said the guy pretending all Roman memes are about “poking fun at them” lol
This is likely one of those cases of X is Y but not all Y are X. Roman history memes can be amusing for anyone.
Being obsessed with Roman and/or WWII history is a red flag, but not a conclusive indicator (unless the obsession with WWII involves praising Nazis).
#NotAllRomanMemes
Paging @PugJesus
I think he’s piefed.social if you want to summon him and probably would get a kick out of this.
I wish I knew how to do that. I abandoned reddit just so many others as soon as they started their API nonsense, so I’m really just here for the memes. And yes, he would enjoy it greatly.
Same here, I miss it sometimes, but Voyager has a nice system for tagging folks. Looks like the sintax is [@ UserName @ host.instance (https://host.instance/u/user )] . Remove spaces
@PugJesus@piefed.social PJ sorry for the somewhat out of context, but Argues here wanted you to see the overall thread.
Seen and summoned 🙏
Brilliant, thanks! I apologize for my incompetent manner. I use Connect only because as I fled reddit, it was probably the first Google result lol.
Oh is he alt-right?
No. He’s a history nerd regularly posting history nerd shit for our own enjoyment.
He just loves Roman history, WW2 history, the space fascist future of 40k, and criticizing the past sins of socialism more than the rise of fascism while completely ignoring all sins of capitalism.
It’s fine I’m sure. Just a turbolib. He believes in democracy. Probably.
He just loves Roman history
As I said, a history nerd.
WW2 history
Uh…what ? So still a nerd but for some reason we’re making a leap between ancient history and WW2 and skipping over all the medieval history content he’s posting. Sure, I guess.
the space fascist future of 40k
So a massive nerd. Painting tiny figurines under a magnifying glass and battling other nerds with measuring tape is top tier nerd shit not pining for fascism shit, although these people exist and are extra visible when they reveal themselves I’ve yet to meet one IRL in 26 years interacting with 40K nerds.
and criticizing the past sins of socialism more than the rise of fascism while completely ignoring all sins of capitalism. It’s fine I’m sure. Just a turbolib. He believes in democracy. Probably.
So he never said or done anything warranting to insult the guy of being far right, but you imply he might be guilty of thought crime for not showing enough leftist credentials to satisfy your own personal standards. And somehow this whole gratuitous character assassination is ok because you made it quippy at the end ? Yikes.
Fucking lol, stay gullible.
He just loves Roman history,
True.
WW2 history,
What? WW2 history is one of the less common things I post or talk about. About the only place it comes up regularly is in historical photos, and even then that’s mostly because it’s a well-photographed war.
the space fascist future of 40k,
… I didn’t realize being a 40k fan who thinks space dystopia is a space dystopia was all that exceptional.
and criticizing the past sins of socialism more than the rise of fascism while completely ignoring all sins of capitalism.
I guess all my constant criticisms of capitalism and the rise of fascism are being ignored in this analysis?
It’s fine I’m sure. Just a turbolib. He believes in democracy. Probably.
Turbolib is when you advocate for harm reduction, and the more harm reduction you advocate for in a society where even the vast majority of the proletariat are hostile towards the idea of socialism, the more turbolib you are?
Forgive me for thinking that national changes need the consensus of the people, a task we as leftists must work towards; I’m sure your holsum vanguard party will perform a successful coup any day now.
No, the other part
What they said.
They might be obsessed with them but they make really shitty ones that are factually inaccurate most of the time.
But just because somebody enjoys history is not a warning sign or red flag. You have to study history to learn political trends and how the world operates.
I enjoy Roman memes and in a lot of the history communities, I learn lots from others … but the greatest thing I’ve ever learned from Roman history is that their legacy is a lesson to all of us of what NOT TO DO to run a civilization because if you did, it only leads to inequality, instability, that it is unsustainable and that it all eventually collapses. They were a great people but they were great because their excess was built on the subjugation of nations and enslaving entire people in order to get what they wanted. They could only succeed if they kept abusing everyone else and eventually themselves.
Their system grew and expanded when it benefited many people … but it collapsed and failed when all that power concentrated itself into ever smaller groups of people.
Roman history is a warning … it’s not something we should try to repeat like we are now.
They were a great people but they were great because their excess was built on the subjugation of nations and enslaving entire people in order to get what they wanted.
Not only on that though, they were great at adopting what was working the best in those subjugated nations, and whatever trade bought to them; not only practical things, but cultural and religious things as well. Just subjugating people doesn’t do much unless you use whatever they have and actually somehow include them in your empire instead - you just can’t hold an empire of that size together by simply trying to genocide all the different people.
Even slavery back then wasn’t necessarily a forever thing, it was more of a circumstance. People regularly freed their well-served slaves, and those freed slaves could attain citizenship and all that. This doesn’t make slavery good mind you, it’s just that it was unlike the slavery in USA which deemed you and your future children all slaves forever, which is the type of slavery people these days think of when talking about the subject.
Now notice how much all this goes against what nazis and magas seem to want; adapting other cultures and their inventions, allowing citizenship to people from different places, freeing slaves and including them too into your nation… These racist, white-supremacist idiots know jackshit about history and understand nothing about why Rome was able to stay in power for so long.
What was the ruin of Sparta and Athens, but this, that mighty as they were in war, they spurned from them as aliens those whom they had conquered? Our founder Romulus, on the other hand, was so wise that he fought as enemies and then hailed as fellow-citizens several nations on the very same day. Strangers have reigned over us. That freedmen’s sons should be intrusted with public offices is not, as many wrongly think, a sudden innovation, but was a common practice in the old commonwealth. But, it will be said, we have fought with the Senones. I suppose then that the Volsci and Aequi never stood in array against us. Our city was taken by the Gauls. Well, we also gave hostages to the Etruscans, and passed under the yoke of the Samnites. On the whole, if you review all our wars, never has one been finished in a shorter time than that with the Gauls. Thenceforth they have preserved an unbroken and loyal peace. United as they now are with us by manners, education, and intermarriage, let them bring us their gold and their wealth rather than enjoy it in isolation. Everything, Senators, which we now hold to be of the highest antiquity, was once new. Plebeian magistrates came after patrician; Latin magistrates after plebeian; magistrates of other Italian peoples after Latin. This practice too will establish itself, and what we are this day justifying by precedents, will be itself a precedent.
The Roman Emperor Claudius, who was also a scholar of history (his writings are sadly lost)
“Waow let’s give more power to fewer people, nothing could possibly go wrong” - Rome nearly every time just before things go horribly wrong
Why do you think those losers always side with the Legion in Fallout New Vegas?
Probably the misogyny and the totalitarianism.
Me, a Romaboo, walking into Edward Sallow’s tent with a .50 cal rifle with explosive rounds hidden in my prison-pocket:
I WAS READY TO SERVE THE CHIEF ROMABOO OF THE WASTES UNTIL I SAW WHAT HE WAS MAKING
HE SHAMES THE MEMORY OF THE RES PVBLICA
Because fascism was literally based on imitating a deliberately misunderstood Roman Empire?
The deliberate misunderstanding of the Roman Empire necessitates a pre-existing worldview through which to misunderstand it.
Unforgivable
staning Rome has always been a fash tradition.
tbf, it was just a general Western tradition until the fash made it weird.
i think you’re right, it was modern fascism (Mussolini), which used Roman imagery in other to return to glory.
I guess by always, I meant a bit less than a century
Fascists are obsessed with power and heirarchy in general, the more idealized the better for their purposes. When it’s not Rome it’s the Knights Templar, the Tsardoms, Making America Great Again, whatever.
Rome is a common trend though, in large part because it’s instantly recognizable and imminently influential on practically every western culture.
This is an interesting prompt. I am fascinated by ancient Rome, both the memes and serious history, and I know for sure that I’m not a member of the alt-right (you might not believe me but that’s irrelevant to my analysis of myself). So why do I find Rome so interesting?
Part of the reason is due to the fact that Rome was powerful. I suppose that I share this with the alt-right but I don’t think that it is an inherently alt-right way of thinking. Ideologies, forms of government, and ways of organizing society must be able to compete in terms of raw power. Ancient Rome was, in these terms, exceptionally successful. It isn’t sufficient for my modern-day values to be in accordance with my moral sense, which is very different from the moral sense of an ancient Roman. My values must also lead to, or at least be consistent with, a society that is able to exert more power (military, economic, and cultural) than other societies organized along different values. Looking at Rome is a way to see what that can look like.
With that said, the western world, organized largely in accord with liberal values which I share, has been not just the best place to live in all of human history but also the most powerful in this sense. I think the alt-right, to the extent that they prefer other values (like ancient Roman ones), are largely fools: the west in general and the USA in particular are far stronger than Rome ever was. This ties into the second part of the reason Rome is interesting: the Republic ended not at a time when it was under threat from external enemies (it was, in many ways, at its strongest when it was the most threatened) but rather at the height of its wealth and power - most of what we think of as the “Empire” was already conquered by then. Then the Empire declined and fell largely because of infighting (although the full explanation for the collapse is a lot more complicated and, frankly, beyond my level of historical expertise). Romans were each other’s worst enemies. And when the Empire fell, it fell far. Things got a lot worse, not just for the Roman elite but for almost everyone, rich and poor. We’re a lot higher up than they ever were so we have a lot further to fall, and yet a lot of people are willing to risk the integrity of our society due to a short-sighted view of history that fails to appreciate how good we do, in fact, have it. The alt-right is among these foolish people - I am lower-case-c conservative because I oppose making large, sudden changes, but the alt-right is not conservative in this sense.
Then the final part of the reason is that Rome is both alien and familiar - Roman ideas and aesthetics were deliberately preserved and spread, so that they are familiar to me in the modern day. Other ancient empires like China are also a source of useful lessons, and I’m sure they’re fascinating to people who know enough to appreciate them, but to me they are far more alien and so I don’t. If I were a professional historian, that wouldn’t be an excuse, but I’m not so I prefer to read and think about Rome.
With that said, the western world, organized largely in accord with liberal values which I share, has been not just the best place to live in all of human history but also the most powerful in this sense.
Hard [X] Doubt on that one.
What would be the better place to live in human history?
I mean, we can truthfully say it’s damnation by faint praise to say as much, but I struggle to think of a better time.
Oh he’s saying the Western world today is better than living anywhere else in human history. Yeah that’s not unreasonable but also a bit of a pointless comparison. I’d rather be well off in several non Western countries than be poor in a Western country, especially America.
My initial interpretation was that the Western world has always been the best place to live in human history which is a hard sell to say the least.
My initial interpretation was that the Western world has always been the best place to live in human history which is a hard sell to say the least.
Ah, yeah, that would be extremely questionable at best.
The Punt Empire. An empire so antithetical to Western values that the British Library sponsored a genocidial campaign in Africa to erase evidence of its existence.
The Punt Empire. An empire so antithetical to Western values that the British Library sponsored a genocidial campaign in Africa to erase evidence of its existence.
What?
It’s the aesthetization of politics, it serves as a recruitment tool for fascist ideology. They present art and symbols (memes) designed to evoke appealing emotions or ideas. Through repetition, the emotions and ideas associated with these symbols become fused with the individual’s identity. The fascist ideology, introduced and linked to these symbols, is more readily accepted because the individual already holds a positive association with the original symbols. It’s basically classic conditioning to transform people into fascists.
