I think they’re just catching up to what countries like the UK did over the past 200 years. So a few hundred thousand more Indian people can afford cars or international holidays these days - that seems fair enough. what’s the indian GHG emisiions per capita?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions_per_capita sorry still old data, but 2023 they were not much over half the UK , so what is the fair share of ghg emissions for a person in India? Any why should it be lower than , say, UK - who has a centuries old legacy of fucking the climate. The UK has a hell of a lot more reducing ghg per person to do before it can be any sort of role model -b and thats after nerfing it’s own heavy industry and not counting GHG embodied in imports.
Back before the twats here (UK) had let the banks offshore domestic manufacturing, you might have had a point, but greenhouse gas intensity of the economy here in UK was a lot higher when we actually did shit like transforming iron ore into useful products.
With widespread international supply chains for so much stuff, I’m not convinced by nationalistic parochialism. At least not without doing a lot of fairly complex import/export and supply / use analysis across industries and from primary through to tertiary to figure out who is really providing for whom.
The simplistic way i see it; It’s a world full of humans (or as i like to say, cunts), they do stuff, they trade their products. some people directly do carbon intensive processes, others buy stuff off them. At the end of the day, if everyone was ‘postindustrial’, it’d be a very interesting and different ‘economy’ and i think very different lifestyles, and a very different capacity to support the human population. I’d like to think the bubble’d last about as well as the Hindenburg blimp.
Any why should it be lower than , say, UK - who has a centuries old legacy of fucking the climate
Because the tech wasn’t available at the time and now with renewables being the cheapest form of electricity it’s straight up insulting that you’d pick coal, gas I can understand due to its ability to quickly fill in for solar/wind gaps but coal… :|
If you’re going to argue that India should be free to copy the west and build coal power plants like we did 50 years ago before solar/batteries/wind etc took off then what are we even doing here? lets just give up because if India lives like the west did 60 years ago it’s over
some people directly do carbon intensive processes, others buy stuff off them
This part I agree with, it comes up a lot lately with AI data centres, people from the west devastated that they have to host the stuff that they use 😭 but also whenever mining is involved people get really upset, especially people in the EU
I’ve argued the EU and US in part run a false green economy, the lithium and critical minerals in your phones and computers has to come from somewhere and mining has an awful environmental impact locally. Saying your green but ignoring that you get China do it isn’t a win at all imo, it’s a joke.
Per capita is not relevant to climate change, but it is relevant to understand the situation lifestyles motivation and economic development of people. I think there has to be a concept of a fair share.
‘Keep them foreigners poor because we fucked up the planet’ is not going to convince many people - outside of those who drink the greenwash koolaid and don’t see that we continue to emit way more than our fair share. Granted the UK is in about the worst position here, because of history that meant countries like India effectively were forced to pay the UK to fuck it up so its a double fuck-you if i were to say that.
India just won’t stay poor anyway and no one is going to stop western and middle eastern oil companies wanting more cars in ‘emerging markets’ .
I’m not saying they should replicate UK as it was in 1980. But if we’re so clean now, having achieved what i call ’ far too little, far too late’ why can’t developing countries catch up their lifestyles to ours today - the answer is we’re not clean and they shouldn’t - but they probably will and I can’t blame them for it.
China must laugh at shitholes like the UK, can’t build Nukes (hinkley point C is what 10-12 years and counting behind schedule?) , can’t build high speed rail, can’t invest in decent public transportation, doesn’t build hydro because of fucking poets and fucking daffodils and yokels fucking sheep, and tries at every turn to follow US’s stupendously inefficient and self indulgent ‘sprawl’ model or housing instead of densifying population efficiently.
I think they’re just catching up to what countries like the UK did over the past 200 years. So a few hundred thousand more Indian people can afford cars or international holidays these days - that seems fair enough. what’s the indian GHG emisiions per capita? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions_per_capita sorry still old data, but 2023 they were not much over half the UK , so what is the fair share of ghg emissions for a person in India? Any why should it be lower than , say, UK - who has a centuries old legacy of fucking the climate. The UK has a hell of a lot more reducing ghg per person to do before it can be any sort of role model -b and thats after nerfing it’s own heavy industry and not counting GHG embodied in imports.
Back before the twats here (UK) had let the banks offshore domestic manufacturing, you might have had a point, but greenhouse gas intensity of the economy here in UK was a lot higher when we actually did shit like transforming iron ore into useful products.
With widespread international supply chains for so much stuff, I’m not convinced by nationalistic parochialism. At least not without doing a lot of fairly complex import/export and supply / use analysis across industries and from primary through to tertiary to figure out who is really providing for whom.
The simplistic way i see it; It’s a world full of humans (or as i like to say, cunts), they do stuff, they trade their products. some people directly do carbon intensive processes, others buy stuff off them. At the end of the day, if everyone was ‘postindustrial’, it’d be a very interesting and different ‘economy’ and i think very different lifestyles, and a very different capacity to support the human population. I’d like to think the bubble’d last about as well as the Hindenburg blimp.
I disagree with measuring in per capita, I argued further here: https://aussie.zone/post/25024450/19010578
Because the tech wasn’t available at the time and now with renewables being the cheapest form of electricity it’s straight up insulting that you’d pick coal, gas I can understand due to its ability to quickly fill in for solar/wind gaps but coal… :|
If you’re going to argue that India should be free to copy the west and build coal power plants like we did 50 years ago before solar/batteries/wind etc took off then what are we even doing here? lets just give up because if India lives like the west did 60 years ago it’s over
This part I agree with, it comes up a lot lately with AI data centres, people from the west devastated that they have to host the stuff that they use 😭 but also whenever mining is involved people get really upset, especially people in the EU
I’ve argued the EU and US in part run a false green economy, the lithium and critical minerals in your phones and computers has to come from somewhere and mining has an awful environmental impact locally. Saying your green but ignoring that you get China do it isn’t a win at all imo, it’s a joke.
Per capita is not relevant to climate change, but it is relevant to understand the situation lifestyles motivation and economic development of people. I think there has to be a concept of a fair share.
‘Keep them foreigners poor because we fucked up the planet’ is not going to convince many people - outside of those who drink the greenwash koolaid and don’t see that we continue to emit way more than our fair share. Granted the UK is in about the worst position here, because of history that meant countries like India effectively were forced to pay the UK to fuck it up so its a double fuck-you if i were to say that.
India just won’t stay poor anyway and no one is going to stop western and middle eastern oil companies wanting more cars in ‘emerging markets’ .
I’m not saying they should replicate UK as it was in 1980. But if we’re so clean now, having achieved what i call ’ far too little, far too late’ why can’t developing countries catch up their lifestyles to ours today - the answer is we’re not clean and they shouldn’t - but they probably will and I can’t blame them for it.
China must laugh at shitholes like the UK, can’t build Nukes (hinkley point C is what 10-12 years and counting behind schedule?) , can’t build high speed rail, can’t invest in decent public transportation, doesn’t build hydro because of fucking poets and fucking daffodils and yokels fucking sheep, and tries at every turn to follow US’s stupendously inefficient and self indulgent ‘sprawl’ model or housing instead of densifying population efficiently.