I have no confidence that Tesla will fix this before the planned Robo-Taxi rollout in Austin in 2 weeks.
After all, they haven’t fixed it in the last 9 years that self-driving Teslas have been on the road.
Not unexpected.
This one is pretty unforgivable. Supposedly the ability to detect these situations was added in December (according to the article) but it’s clearly not working very well. Something like this should 100% pause the rollout of robo-taxis.
For normal cars though, the drivers should press the brakes to disable FSD when they see their car not slowing down when approaching a stopped bus like this.
Except the big danger with fully self driving cars is that drivers are not paying attention at all as they have nothing to do most of the time. They’ll be on their phones regardless of what theyre supposed to do and that will cause deaths. So such a glaring safety flaw will have numerous opportunities to happen in real life - humans do not make good safety features in cars; thats what the self drive stuff was for.
Teslas self drive technology is not fit for the roads regardless of this. Musk had sensors stripped out pf the cars design to save money because apparently he knows better than all the worlds self drive engineers. The guy is a just an investment bro woth a huge ego - he can’t let the people hes investing in get onwith it, because he sees himself as a “genius”. The guys a moron.
Linus tech tips recently reviewed a car with semi auto self driving. It can keep you in the lane and at the right speed. He said it’s perfect for school zones because he knows he doesn’t have to watch the Speedo and give that extra attention to watching for kids walking out. I have to agree with him, there is a school on my commute and the speed drops to 20mph. I let the car do that bit while I worry about little (or sometimes big) feet.
Would I trust that system to spot a child before I do? Not a chance.
That’s where I use the speed limiter in residential areas. I can’t drive faster so I don’t have to check the speed. But when I take my foot of the pedal, the car slows down.
Outside residential area and on highway I use the adaptive cruise control.
They’ll be on their phones regardless of what theyre supposed to do and that will cause deaths.
So no different to in non self-driving cars then.
They know these things are going to kill people; it’s just inevitable.
Engineers are well aware of there being a cost-benefit analysis for saving human lives. O’Grady from Practical Engineering did a great video explaining how much a human life is worth to engineers. I think it was a little under $60k.
The purpose of reducing government oversight as much as possible is so that the cost of killing people is as low as possible.
It’s not an on/off switch of government regulation. They know that every additional policy they can shift in their favor will translate to increased profits down the line as people inevitably die from these things.
Fight Club taught me the cost of human life to corporations.
If PredictedLawsuitLosses < CostOfRecall then RecallNotAnnounced
Human life doesn’t factor in at all for them.
Human life absolutely factors into predicted lawsuit losses. Wrongful death lawsuits are expensive.
What I meant is they don’t care about people as people.
It’s just a number to them.
If they can profit of millions dying and they know they could get away with it, they would.
But not expensive enough to stop them killing people through negligence and greed.
Some of you may die~
But it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make.
This is why capitalists align with fascists.
Google, Meta, etc, are all taking the knee, because no regulation lets them slurp up our data. Target is shooting itself in the foot on DEI to appease stupid Mussolini, because a fascist autocrat doesn’t enforce labor protections.
Fascism, at its core, is an alignment between government and corporations. Capitalists align with fascism because that’s the entire point of fascism.
Damn, must suck living in the US
I lived there for six-ish years- from 1998 until 2004.
When Americans re-elected GWB, I realized “this place is RAPIDLY becoming a shithole that’s only going to get worse.” I got the hell out as soon as I was able, and every single day since, I’ve been more relieved I left when I did.
I’d be down if and when they do better than human drivers. Until then, there’s trains.
They hate trains…“THERE IS ONLY TWO GENDERS!”
The problem is, it’s already better than the worst human drivers, it’s just that that’s too low a bar. It’s a looong way away from being better than the best human drivers (think taxi and bus drivers who do it every day, or police who actually go through extra vehicle handling training)
I would generally agree with that statement but it seems the spirit of this thread is solidly in opposition. It would be make/model dependent, and Tesla has demonstrated their lack of safety.
It would be make/model dependent
I’m specially talking about Tesla’s FSD/Autopilot.
While getting a demo of FSD from a friend, their Model 3 correctly stopped at a red light, and 30 seconds later a car ran right through it in the next lane over. That’s how low the bar is for “worst human driver”. Tbh, that human shouldn’t have been on the road if they’re driving past stopped cars through a red light.I would asset your anecdote is definitely not proof positive of Tesla FSD being better than humans statistically, but it’s true that most public sentiment is inaccurate in assessing their FSD as either flawless or a murder-suicide mobile.
I’ve been behind the wheel when FSD was going to run a red light for me, twice in the same trip. It does perform impressively well most of the time, and if I could wave a magic wand, I’d put Tesla software in a more reputable brand’s car with LIDAR. Musk is a moron for going cameras only (and about fifty other things).
On the bright side, maybe this is building up to an “owner of the Segway company”-type ending?
Tesla self driving is already responsible for the deaths of multiple people.
They weren’t held accountable for those.
Nothing will meaningfully improve until the rich fear for their lives
If regular school shootings were no reason to actually do something, why would regular deadly accidents with self driving systems be one? I’m always amazed by what Americans are willing to tolerate.
Every day more people feel like they have nothing to lose.
It’s only a matter of time before they direct their ire towards the ones who put them in that position.
It’s only a matter of time before they direct their ire towards the ones who put them in that position.
I’d not hold my breath waiting for that. Why do you think billionaires own almost all newspapers/social media/mainstream media? They’ll always find someone or something else to blame, keep us divided. And this has worked well enough for centuries.
There’s been like 3 CEO’S murdered this year
Chin up
That’s slightly different since most states will put full responsibility on the driver even for autonomous cars. If there’s no driver, though, it would go back to the manufacturer. That’s why Uber gave up on self driving after one of their test cars ran over someone.
Much like the mass shootings in the U.S., there’s literally no solution for this. /s
Well, what are we 'aposta do?!
Strangle these defenseless corporations with the same kind of regulations we continue to create and impose on small businesses? Do you even know who their father is?!
You got the strangle part right.
Where is Luigi
So, the USA people are the beta testers, i guess.
Put some respect to their name, off course they are alpha (males!) testers.
only Texans… (with the robotaxis)
Texas state legislature has passed a law making it illegal for cities to pass laws more restrictive than the state laws and Austin which is known to be full of progressives. This makes it a perfect place for Tesla to beta-test it’s software. They’ll kill people likely to vote for Democrats.
Thoughts and prayers.
Might also explain why they’re the only ones that seem to have all this knowledge of a population crisis that no one else is aware of.
Thank God for the technocratic elite, and their foresight to know their plans for greatness will almost certainly wipe out the entire U.S. population. Hazard of being part of the unwashed masses, I guess.
Glad they are doing all this while they simultaneously argue that a loss of our personal liberty is a small price to pay for their protection. If they weren’t keeping us safe from… ::gestures vaguely:: China(?) then who would?
So motorcyclists weren’t enough, they’re going after kids now? Did they move their headquarters to israel?
rofl
I knew I was better than a Tesla. I actually got my Class A for driving a school bus. I can legally drive pretty much anything on wheels, because the school bus pretty much requires everything. Even hazardous material training. Just in case the government needs to use a school bus to offload nuclear waste or something. I just like to think the kids are toxic. 🤷🏻♂️
When I worked with kids, there were a lot of biohazards. Mostly shit, snot, and piss, but on a bus you’ll probably get a fair bit of puke too. I’m guessing the driver has to clean the bus.
I’m wondering if maybe it was just your driving style
You have to have hazmat to drive a school bus?!?
Just some minor training associated with it. I do not actually have a hazmat endorsement; it’s literally just a special thing for school buses because they are allowed to be used to transport such material in an emergency.
But the training would make it rather easy to obtain the endorsement, if I really wanted it (I do not tho).
I guess there’s going to be a lot of heroes popping Robo-Taxi tires. To protect their community and all that.
I recall that people blocked Waymo cars at one point by simply placing orange cones in front of them. Given Teslas only use cameras I wonder if you could just slap a sticker of an orange cone (or just a splash of orange paint) on the hood and confuse it enough that it wouldn’t move…
Edit: Or, if you really want to be a dick, get some black stickers (the stronger the glue the better) and surreptitiously put them over one or more cameras.
Given Teslas only use cameras
This still blows my mind. My fucking robot vacuum uses LiDAR, and multi-ton vehicles on public roads use cameras? Jesus Christ.
“Well you see lidar cameras are expensive. Yeah… that’s the excuse. No more questions” - Tesla whenever they are asked to explain themselves
Actually the excuse Musk uses is that humans only use their eyes to drive, so that’s enough for cars as well.
Wrong on so many levels…
Right… except for hearing horns, sirens or brakes screeching. Feeling a bump in the road and using the tactile feedback to determine if you should swerve or stop.
Elon Musk has been chaffeured the vast majority of his life and it shows.
In my country when you do a driving test one of the things you have to do is pass a hazard perception test. Everyone hates it because it consists of watching a video and clicking on the hazards when you notice them.
The problem is it’s almost impossible because the Field of view is probably only about 90°, you can’t turn your head because you’re locked to the forward-facing camera position, and you lack all the other information.
There are practise tests online, it’s interesting to take them because it really does show you how dependent you are on things other than just direct vision.
Holy shit did he really say that?
The “humans drive cars with just optical input” has become a weirdly tightly held misconception for Elon Musk, it’s a core part of his personality where autonomy is concerned:
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-says-tesla-doesnt-023035552.html
Humans drive with optical input, haptic feedback, and millenia of evolution to handle the decision-making and social skills required to handle a vehicle safely. No LiDAR or radar waves, sure, but I wouldn’t say no if either were on offer!
The dumbest part? He developed this belief in ~2019. Lidar costs have dropped immensely since then, and are fast-dropping still. Any technologist who doesn’t fucking suck knows that component prices follow that depreciation curve. So he’s basically an old man shouting at a cloud at this point, it would be cheaper to fix the mistake, but it could hurt his personal branding as a guru.
Did they try it with a lighter colored child?
deleted by creator
No worries, it happens a lot, people are just drawn to me
Ope, now I regret deleting my edited explanation! That is an excellent response to my accidental comment.
Correction: Robo-Taxis Hit the Child in 2 Weeks
My immediate thought was “That’s not all they’re going to be hitting…”
It’s because it was so good that it knew it was a dummy and not a child /s
Let’s not get carried away pretending America cares too much about children dying frfr.
Yeah the draconian punishment and outcry when someone dares to overtake a school bus is absolutely laughable.
Give that child chance to be shot the next day in school! Or starve to death, because they can’t afford school lunches.
Yeah once they’re out of the womb, fuck 'em. We only care about the unborn.
They don’t actually care about the unborn either. They just want women to suffer, that’s always been the only goal.
If we did the Carolina Lean is a bigger threat than Elon, but somehow that’s legal in most states.
The article doesn’t mention anything about where the cars will be driving in Austin, but I reluctantly took a Waymo from the airport in Phoenix to a hotel and it did really well. Even slowed down for a guy who was jaywalking.
It ended up taking longer than expected because apparently they’re either require or trained on different roads than you would normally take (e.g. no highways). It did such a good job, though, that I ended up taking a Waymo a second time while there.
All this to say that it may not be ready for all roads, but is ready for some. Definitely still scary though.
I believe Waymo has a better set of sensors (Lidar + Radar+ Cameras instead of just cameras), more processing power, and more research / time / resources spent on it compared to Tesla.
So it’s not that we aren’t ready for self driving taxis, but rather about which cars are ready to provide that service
I think Waymo is also trying to prioritize safety. I was in San Francisco recently and took one, just out of curiosity, from my hotel to a Giants game. It seemed to stop when pedestrian traffic got heavy instead of going all the way to the stadium. So, like three blocks from the stadium. No biggie. I might have told a human taxi driver I could walk from there.
I’m not sure if it’s a California regulation or Waymo trying to play it safe but I will never get in a self-driving car regulated by Texas and designed to the specifications of one of history’s biggest dumbasses.
Texas is a shithole that only exists to serve businessmen at this point.
That’s why elon and republicans love it so much.
Working with cities to regulate self-driving and plan out specific routes/infrastructure was always going to be the only path to widespread adoption but Elon was too busy grifting off bullshit claims like everyone’s Teslas moonlighting as self-driving taxis and paying for themselves.
Makes sense. There were sensors alll over that thing.
That’s part of the reason Teslas are not well-suited for this. One camera, each direction, with no other sensors to help make decisions, is a really bad way to ensure safety.
Humans normally have two “front facing cameras” (i.e. two eyes) so we have depth perception. We also process light differently than cameras do so infrared light (for one) doesn’t affect our decisions. We also have ears so the sound of a loud motorcycle engine tips us off if we just see a spec in the distance. We also use context clues to help our decisions, like if other drivers change lanes quickly we are extra observant of road obstacles.
Not that technology can never be as good as a human at driving, but we use a lot more than a single “moving picture” to decide what we should do.
To be fair, the Tesla vision system has 3 cameras facing forward. One in the center above the front bumper grille and two behind the rear view mirror. Those two provide some level of stereoscopic vision to help judge distances.
But yeah, the lack of other sensors is a huge issue. Anything from bug splatter to mud to snow etc. can easily obscure one or more cameras and render the whole vision system unreliable.
We also process light differently than cameras do
To expand on this a little further, human vision has also developed the ability to filter out unnecessary information in order to avoid overloading the brain. When tracking moving objects the eyes mostly send deltas of the movement to the brain. Computers, however, are the exact opposite. The cameras essentially send a series of still images, and it’s up to the computer to compare them to look for any movement.
Waymo is really interesting - you probably wouldn’t guess it, I’m a cautiously optimistic autonomy person! Waymo is already 12x safer than human drivers, that’s brilliant, I love that.
Teslas will (allegedly) start on a small, low-complexity street grid in Austin. exact size TBA. Presumably, they’re mapping the shit out of it and throwing compute power at analyzing their existing data for that postage stamp.
The rub… that all points out the obvious danger of rolling out the wild-west FSD that Tesla drivers are currently employing everywhere else. If it’s safe enough to trust to drive your car for you, why does it need a ton of additional guard-rails to operate without a safety driver?
Yeah it’s scary to think about. There should be laws though that you’re still 100% at fault if you were not driving during an accident. I imagine another issue with FSD is government having a backdoor into your car to immobilize you or whatever they want. Part of me is in favor of that, but of course that a huuuge responsibility that can be abused.
The fun part is tesla FSD shuts off just before accidents, so you’re always the one at fault.
So you’re saying it’s good at anticipating accidents haha
You would be the one at fault in most states anyway as long as you’re technically operating the car. They do that mostly for potential lawsuits from their customers.
Teslas will (allegedly) start on a small, low-complexity street grid in Austin. exact size TBA. Presumably, they’re mapping the shit out of it and throwing compute power at analyzing their existing data for that postage stamp.
Lol where are the Tesla fanboys insisting that geofencing isn’t useful for developing self driving tech?
Can Waymo sometimes use a remote human driver?
I am optimistic about self driving, just not Teslas. Unlike other self driving cars, Tesla is exlusively reliant on cameras. Others, like Waymo, have cameras, lidarr sensors and radar.
It’s weird–Tesla at least projected some sort of ‘higher-end’ quality back when they first started coming around but as time has gone on it’s proven itself to be a very cheaply-made vehicle.
The fact they insist on using their proven-inferior tech for FSD tells you all you need to know: they aren’t looking to innovate or even bring themselves up to modern standards. They are determined to make their cars with the cheapest, shittiest tech and they’ll just grease the right palms in order to proceed as necessary.
Elon’s success as a businessman beyond being very good at self promotion is that he’s a brilliant cost cutter. SpaceX exists as it does today thanks to his exceptional ability to make people do great things with the least amount of resources and processes possible. The problem is at this point he has bought in too much into his own myth to the point he’s a caricature of his own self. Sensors are expensive and ugly, so he doesn’t want to use them and his argument is that humans don’t have sensors, only eyes. Which is a fine philosophy if you’re trying to create a system that is as dangerous as humans behind the wheel but I thought the idea was to make something better.
Texas releasing these things in public is horrifying. Tesla is last in this field, and refuses to add LIDAR, which is obviously what is needed.
My $60 robot vacuum has lidar…
Maybe you can get a business going mounting roombas on Tesla bumpers?
Call it clean energy
I award you the dubious honor of “Best Pun on the Thread”
Lidar is one of the things it needs, but even when they properly see what’s ahead they don’t interpret it correctly and don’t take the correct actions, it’s bigger than just lidar, which is honestly terrifying
