I’ve been trying to find a good Marxist instance, but Lemmygrad and Hexbear are widely hated. Why is that? Are there any good leftist instances?
Lemmygrad and Hexbear aren’t “leftist” in the confused sense that Americans usually mean “leftist.” They’re actually leftist in the original sense, meaning that they want to abolish private ownership of the means of production. To the extent they’re “widely hated,” it’s largely because the Anglosphere has been indoctrinated against real, actual socialism their entire lives.
More often than not, when Americans say leftist they really mean left-liberalism a la Bernie Sanders, which is really center-left at most, and not actually leftist in the original sense, a sense which Americans have forgotten thanks to two Red Scares and the first Cold War.
True, but leninists are not leftist in any significant sense either. They are more authoritarian/ totalitarian than they are left or right.
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That’s not the part people have an issue with, the part where their users deny genocides, call everyone that has a less extreme left opinion of politics Nazis, end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves and take all critics as personal attacks, that’s what people have an issue with.
their users deny genocides
If you are referring to the Xinjiang issue, then it just reaffirms what @davel@lemmy.ml just said:
it’s largely because the Anglosphere has been indoctrinated against real, actual socialism their entire lives
Because the “Uyghur genocide” in Xinjiang is another example of propaganda. Or do you really think the West cares about Muslims and want to protect their “freedom”?
call everyone that has a less extreme left opinion of politics Nazis
I don’t see anyone in Lemmygrad calling other people “Nazis” because they disagree with someone in a discussion. I usually see them criticizing others as “liberals.” This is either a misrepresentation of leftists in general, very common among conservatives, or you are frequently being called a Nazi. I don’t know, maybe that’s on you? 🤔
end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves and take all critics as personal attacks
That’s so specific you should give at least one example of this. We have very strict moderation against any bigotry, so I challenge you to link any “racist” attitude or comment you have seen in Lemmygrad. I will give you 24 hours, and if you don’t reply with an example, I will edit this comment saying you chickened out.
EDIT: They chickened out, as expected.
Wild how much footage is coming out of Gaza right now showing an actual ongoing genocide, yet Zionists and their water-carriers will harp on and on about how Israel is merely defending itself.
Nothing of the sort from Xinjiang. At all.
I’d like to see ONE verifiable image or video depicting this supposed Uyghur genocide we’re denying. ONE. Apparently it’s one of the worst human atrocities occuring right now. One of the worst in HISTORY.
So… show me a single picture. Fetish porn doesn’t count. Where are the dead bodies? Where are these supposed mass graves?
Love to break it to ya, they don’t fucking exist and they never did. You’ve been lied to.
The US state department lawyers and the British House of Lords have evidence. That’s why they’re pursuing convictions of the Chinese leaders involved. No, wait— sorry, I misremembered. They both concluded there is insufficient evidence.
So you agree that there is a strong argument for Russia seeking genocide in Ukraine as well, right?
Israel has killed more civilians (mostly children and women) in a month of war than Russia has killed in almost two years. The Russians actually target almost exclusively military infrastructure, they have preserved electrical grids, water stations, communications infrastructure, etc… Not because they are “good guys”, obviously, but it’s a part of their strategy. But it shows genocide is not a part of this strategy.
The article was written by Timofei Sergeitsev, a Russian “philosopher” with no direct link to the government. The article in the website you linked was written in early April 2022, very early after the war, when no one knew what to expect. It was claimed it was “proof” the Russians was intending to genocide Ukrainians.
More than a year later, have we seen anything like it? Have we seen active actions from the Russians to consistently destroy civilian buildings and systematically cause civilian casualties on purpose? I at least haven’t, unless we are talking about a completely different war which I’m not aware. I don’t excuse the Russians of anything, I’m sticking with the facts. The Russians have been very careful not to cause non-military casualties, which is extremely odd for a genocidal regime.
So, in short, it’s your article written by a guy with no links to the government vs. what the actual war itself shows in practice. I prefer to see what practice shows us.
Feels like ad hominem. The point is that you are unwilling to even engage with the idea that Russia seeks to eliminate Ukrainian identity, an idea which is reported by a number of primary Russian sources in a variety of media. Putin himself expresses frequent open skepticism of Ukrainian nationality. Not to even mention the internationally recognized mass deportation of children.
I won’t argue that Israel isn’t an apartheid state engaging in collective punishment. Meanwhile you will turn yourself in circles to defend Russian aggression, and for the life of me I can figure out what that has to do with liberating workers. It just feels less like intellectual honesty and more like campism. But then somehow I’m the brainwashed goon for actually attempting to maintain something resembling ideological consistency.
Holy shit you got them to brigade your comment. They might as well be bots, I think Chat GPT’s “intelligence” outpaces them.
They have a community dedicated to organizing brigades so it’s no surprise that they are brigading their comment
The rules in the side bar are very telling
Of course the last time I mentioned it’s existence with one of my alts I got a 2 week sitewide-ban so this comment probably won’t last long
Edit: Spleling
end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves
anyone complaining about “reverse racism” or “anti white racism” is a complete joke. like boo fucking hoo, someone called you a cracker on the internet, get over it.
Racism has a definition that’s fairly easy to understand and yes people of all colors can be victims and even people of the same skin colour can be racists against one another because racism isn’t necessarily about the color of your skin, it can be about your ethnicity.
Racism:
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.Ethnicity:
the quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent.If you had taken a crowd of anonymous Germans all dressed the same in 1935, how would you have told who was a Jew and who wasn’t? You wouldn’t have been able to because they were all just white people.
What do you call it when 100 years ago in a first world white country the population that speaks one official language has an infant mortality rate comparable to that of colonial Africa while the population that speaks the other official language and lives in the same cities has an infant mortality rate comparable to any other first world nation?
Was the Rwanda genocide not racism because it was two groups with the same skin colour? What about what happened in Yugoslavia?
My white friend who went to China to study had to sit through multiple explanations by many Chinese student of the levels of intelligence being affected by skin colour and ethnicity and guess what, whites weren’t at the top! “All white people are dumber than Indians who are dumber than Koreans who are dumber than Chinese.” Are you telling me that isn’t racism against white people (and anyone that isn’t Chinese)? Because I sure would hope someone would call me a racist if I was saying the same thing about people of another skin colour or ethnicity!
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So you’re saying that what the Jews were victim of during WW2 wasn’t racism? Because they certainly were white!
How about the Irish? The deportation of Acadians? French Canadians seeing their language becoming illegal to teach in Manitoba? The Yugoslav wars?
By your logic it’s also impossible to be racist towards Chinese and Japanese because man, let me tell you, they can be racist as fuck towards everyone else and they were the ones in power on their side of the world for centuries!
Racism has a definition and it’s a bad thing no matter who the victim is.
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That isn’t what they are talking about, hopefully. But if it is, I agree, a hearty “lol” is in order.
That’s a liberal with no framework. No one denies genocides (pro-tip just because the western media says it’s a genocide doesn’t make it a genocide.) Being so anti-racist you are the real racist is the Liberal Democratic party who elected a hard-core segregationist as president, not a Marxist Leninist. No one except people like you give a fuck about personal attacks. lol.
I wouldn’t be a fan of a nazi or islamist instance either. One for communists is hardly any different as far I’m concerned. They’re all groups of extremists that I don’t want anything to do with. Just look at the modlog of this instance for example. Exhibit B is the fact that this message will get deleted in couple hours and I’ll likely be banned.
‘American Liberal’ is more extreme than any of the above
Just to clarify, you believe “American Liberal” is more extreme than Nazis?
Where do you think Hitler got the infulence to use the gas chambers?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Bath_riots
America has sucsesfully carried out multiple genocides, as recently as a decade ago.
The Nazis failed, America didnt.
The article you linked is about brutal mistreatment and forced “disinfection” of people crossing a border. As horible as that is, do you truly believe that is the same scale of evil as systematic genocide?
I’m not American and that article doesn’t mention liberalism, so I’d appreciate it if you highlight the connection there too.
The article you linked is about brutal mistreatment and forced “disinfection” of people crossing a border. As horible as that is, do you truly believe that is the same scale of evil as systematic genocide?
I highlighted the part relevant in the reply above, to further explain America invented the gas chamber as a way to ‘medicalize’ executions and attempt to make them more ‘humane’. Hitler was inspired by this ‘scientific’ approach to executions that he replicated the design while carrying out his holocaust by using higher concentrations of Zyklon B, which in low doses acts as a disinfectant, and in high doses kills.
In regards to actual genocides though, Id point to the Korean War (they wanted to drop a nuke on Korea, even in South Korea american troops slaughtered 300,000+ civillians and then installed a military dictatorship) gulf war (2 million civallians dead) and Vietnam (Free fire zones, agent orange) as examples of genocides carried out last century/recently, and then obviously the founding genocide of the Native American population.
Also I would say that given America has the highest prison population, in the history of mankind; of which are mostly political prisoners arrested on drug charges, or as a consequence of the drug war (a political war), the ongoing genocide of black americans is yet to be resolved.
Do we want to count the number of genocides Americans have supported since just 1900, compared to the Nazis only pulling one? 'Cause I’ve got the Americans responsible for the genocide of every indigenous tribe that originally held their land, the ongoing genocide of the Black community, genocide of the Mexicans that attempt to cross into the country while Biden’s atomization and sexual assault camps are still open on the border, genocide of the Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts, and genocide of the Palestinians-- so I’m definitely going to hedge my chips on the Americans being worse.
As it is, Hitler lifted his concepts of Lebensraum and Aryan purity from Manifest Destiny and Jim Crow Codes in the first place, so… Yeah, motherfuck America and motherfuck her vassals. Typical crackers taking offense at their crimes being listed off to them, though; why am I surprised? There’s no singular people in the world with less a sense of culpability or shame than Americans, other than maybe the Brits or the French-- both of whom have been vassalized by America in the first place.
The Nazis did multiple genocides by almost any definition, though obviously they could never aspire to the body count of America or Britain.
I figured since the manifold genocides all happened around the same time as part of the same policy, it’d all be lumped into one; that’s my b-- but you are still correct in that the body count is absolutely dwarfed by what the American Empire’s gotten up to.
Because they are populated by some of the dumbest people on the planet.
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A lot of it is McCarthyism, though i’ve personally had my problems with hexbear and you should probably stay away from them.
Political views aside, the way they promote their political views is unappealing.
Look through any of their popular threads. Everyone piles on any comment which doesn’t align perfectly with the agreed perspective.
Everyone piles on any comment which doesn’t align perfectly with the agreed perspective.
Sounds like every popular community on Lemmy. The only difference is the “agreed perspective”.
Not really.
In most communities you can at least entice some robust discussion, hexbear just seems sp aggressively intolerant of alternative views.
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Love how at the very idea of somebody disagreeing with you, you start throwing up all sorts of topics you know are hot buttons just so you can preemptively slam anyone who has a different perspective than you. Rather than taking a second to teach a single thing about the topics you claim to care about you just flash them like political merit badges to prove you’re in the in-group, and anybody who doesn’t know exactly what one of those things are, or what you think is the truth about it, is worth dismissing out of hand. It’s just a secret handshake that if people don’t parrot it back to you they’re not worth debating. You were never here for healthy debate though. You don’t care about convincing anyone or advancing your causes or ideas. You’re here for the badges.
@JungleJim@sh.itjust.works your assessment of @TheAnоnymоuseJоker@lemmy.ml is spot-on, highlighting behaviors indicative of a fragile ego and a need for superiority. This individual frequently deflects from central topics, especially when their views are challenged, revealing an inability to handle opposing viewpoints. It’s normal to have differences in opinion, but for TheAnоnymоuseJоker this seems to be an act of war, a mindset that is immature and counterproductive for meaningful online interactions.
Psychologically, it’s a common fallacy for some individuals to oversimplify complex social interactions, reducing them to mere players in the game of their subjective perception. This viewpoint often ignores the nuanced realities of human behavior and interaction.
Recognizing these behaviors — deflecting, causing dismay, dismissing, denying, deceiving — is essential in understanding the underlying motivations and responding appropriately to maintain the integrity of the discussion.
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See, this is why people have problems with ML and hexbears. How will you ever bring the revolution when you can’t stop screeching? Nobody wants that. Nobody wants to be around it. You’ll be a revolution of one because nobody can take being around such an abrasive asshole long enough to even listen to their points, much less realize they might be right.
Imagine somebody walking down the street. They see a poster on the wall of the store they pass. It’s a Starbucks. “Looks tasty, I’m cold” they say. Suddenly, you’re there, shrieking about labor rights and fair trade. You are without a doubt correct, but you’ve scared the person and now they’re annoyed. One of those drones inside with the green hats comes out and sees the situation. They ask the customer to come inside where they’re safe from you, and now they’re buying overpriced drinks from exploited workers produced by exploited farmers etc.
All because instead of talking to someone like a human, you had to be edgy and witty. You treat real humans the way tv characters talk to each other. On TV the wittiest oneo-liner wins. In real life you have to show a little human compassion, even if you’re faking it or else you alienate who you’re talking to and are left in an echo chamber, alone, or in the case of our imagined scenario the employees may call security or police (agents of oppression, and they’ll probably buy coffee too) on a person harassing potential customers.
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That’s a very mature response
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Do you actually believe these things or do you just say them to try to get a rise out of people because I’ve never been able to work that one
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It’s evident that the your not interested in a genuine exchange of ideas or healthy debate. By rapidly switching topics and using them as shields rather than points of discussion, you’re clearly employing tactics like deflecting and deceiving. These types of methods serve to derail the conversation and assert dominance rather than contribute meaningfully.
Classic case of using hot-button issues not to educate or enlighten but to create an ‘in-group’ and outcast those who question or differ. This approach isn’t just unproductive; it’s an attempt to manipulate the discourse for personal gratification rather than collective understanding.
Recognizing these tactics is the first step in not falling victim to them and maintaining the integrity of the discussion
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Ukraine good Russia bad?
Sorry I don’t side with imperialism.
Ukraine wants to not be invaded by it’s neighbor, and Russia did so to conquer it in direct contradiction to a treaty it signed when Ukraine gave it’s nukes to Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. On multiple occasions.
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Did Russia not invade Ukraine’s sovereign territory?
That’s a pretty big rock you’ve been living under to miss that.
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Far-left echo chamber that from my experience really hates Jews.
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Just take a look at this question, all of the answers are from lemmygrad and hexbear users. You are not going to get a good answer from them because they’re the people you’re asking the question about.
They are not hated they’re just annoying, no one really cares about their opinions the problem is is that they try and push their opinions on everybody else.
Well, when I see a .ml user from here on out I’m not sure I’ll be able to give them the same sort of leeway.
I had one of their users confirm they were racist. Then I saw that only the parts where our conversation was removed by mods, and not shit canning the user.
You want people to like you, don’t lie down with racists.
I concur about .ml. It’s been eye opening being on the receiving end of a homophobic rant by a moderator of their world news community implying I’m not queer enough. It wouldn’t surprise me that they’re racist, too. Bigots tend to subscribe to more than one strain of bigotry.
I know it shouldn’t matter what people like that think, but I’d be lying if I said I’m not disappointed and dismayed. I’ve survived so many things and had a long hard road to self-acceptance. It’s disgusting to be invalidated by someone who likely has more than I’ve ever had.
Middle class white gay men could use their privilege to help out the rest of the lgbtq community instead of being right wingers, but then that would require examining their privileges, and we can’t have that.
So pointing out those privileges and how different rights affect different subsections of the community differently because of those privileges is homophobic./s
Fuck off.
This is exactly why the only gays I have the time and energy for have to have some melanin in them. Black, Latino, indigenous, it don’t matter to me from there but you can’t be a hwhite gay and expect to just chill with me anymore; not without HARDCORE vetting. I’m talking “six months to two years worth of figuring out if you’re some kind of narc, some kind of #alllivesmatter queer(they exist), or some other kind of malevolent settler-queer” hardcore vetting.
I don’t spend an IOTA of my energy on these three-no’s-on-they-grindr-profile-assed settlers anymore; not with all the crybullying about “reverse racism” and all these other fuckboy games they’d rather play than actually do any kind of meaningful work on themselves or the way they navigate the world.
Required reading: x
As several scholars have noted, contemporary gay life is marked by high levels of racism directed towards gay men of color by gay white men, with much of the racism manifesting itself as negative sexual attitudes towards, and sexual exclusion or fetishization of, non-white men (Armstrong 2002; Bérubé 2001; Epstein 1996; McBride 2005; Tenunis, 2007). After examining online personal ads and interviewing gay men, Robinson (2015) found that gay white men often exclude gay men of color as potential sexual partners while denying that their racial preferences are racist in nature.
…
Despite gay white men’s insistence that sexual exclusion was not racism but rather personal preference, and that these personal preferences have nothing to do with racism, Collander and his colleagues (2015) found that attitudes toward sexual exclusion were related to almost every identified factor associated with racist attitudes in general.
I’m white and Asian but look fairly white and you wouldn’t believe(well, you probably would) the fucking shit I hear from white lesbians and trans people too. They’re much better than gay men overall but holyyy shit.
I can’t speak about lemmygrad since the instances I’m on all defederate from it, but Hexbear users have a reputation for being generally aggressive, grating, and immature. It’s like that kid in class who keeps interrupting the teacher because they think they’re funny and clever. e.g., some were screaming at me that I can’t be an anarchist and I know nothing about anarchism since I’m married, replying with third-grade tier memes for some confusing reason
Thought I should add it was them informing me that certain countries banning same-sex marriage while endorsing heterosexual marriage is just fine, actually. They espoused an objectively homophobic belief, and when I referenced my own marriage, they switched to calling me ignorant about anarchism. There are anarchist texts exploring the issue and some of the potential problems with traditions like marriage, but it’s not dogma. Nor do I view my own relationship as hierarchical.
TL;DR They were being objectively homophobic.
This has the energy of a white gay man in a marriage pointing at a trans polycule and calling them homophobic because they said he had a bad take about how bourgeois privileges are more important than positive rights for queer homeless people.
White gay men wielding their gayness as a cudgel against people who are queerer and more marginalized then them sure is a gross thing to see.
Your comment is a perfect example of the pants-shittingly off-topic LGBTphobic nonsense I was receiving in the other thread, so thanks for proving my point.
You … you do realize that trans people and other “queerer” people than me engage in same-sex marriage too, right? And that it’s objectively homophobic for a policy to exist forbidding same-sex marriage while permitting heterosexual marriage? And that not all trans people are poly? I know people that fit all of the above, and every one of them deserves validation, and it would be unfathomably LGBTphobic for me to arbitrarily determine which ones are “queer enough” to be part of the community. You don’t see the problem with this line of thinking, with your entire statement? Of course you do, you’re just being deliberately cruel for your own amusement.
There it is, folks. Exhibit A
Edit: That user is a moderator on !worldnews@lemmy.ml
I’m unsubscribing immediately! And I blocked and reported that user, too.
My love is for all the LGBT+ community, and for the straight cis community as well. I just want equity. For anyone who had to read that homophobic comment above, just know that I do care, and I’m here for you.
And that it’s objectively homophobic for a policy to exist forbidding same-sex marriage while permitting heterosexual marriage?
Yes!
Do you acknowledge that some countries like the US which allow gay marriage materially harm lgbt people more than some countries that have banned gay marriage? Or is it only homophobic when it impacts your middle class ass?
Do you acknowledge that many socialist countries are progressive and moving toward more rights, and just starting from a worse starting point because of violently enforced colonial attitudes from countries that now claim to be progressive?
Do you acknowledge that Cuba, a socialist nation that you’d accuse of being tankie, is the place where lgbt people have the most material rights?
Do you acknowledge that communists have led every single queer liberation movement that has forced concessions from ruling governments? Or do you want to whitewash the communists out of stonewall?
You … you do realize that trans people and other “queerer” people than me engage in same-sex marriage too, right?
Yes, I’m one of them. And I’d happily give up my right to be married if it would erase queer homelessness, and erase conversion therapy camps, and erase the continual murder of black and indigenous trans women in our society.
I believe you’ve answered your own question.
Lemmy isn’t Marxist-only. The majority of Lemmy users are what the more vocal Lemmygrad and Hexbear users deride as “libs.” As a thought experiment, imagine that you are one of us for a moment and then browse Local on one of those.
Thought experiment; Don’t be a lib.
Exhibit #1 why Hexbear/Lemmygrad are unpopular: this guy
Hope this isn’t a Tankie instance.
edit: godammit
ML absolutely is.
Lemmygrad and Hexbear are cool. IDK why you wouldn’t like them if you’re a leftist.
I’m a leftist that doesn’t like hanging with racists and totalitarians, that’s why I don’t like them.
I don’t think you even know what “totalitarianism” is. You know why? Because that term doesn’t mean anything. It was popularized by Hannah Arendt, an academic author indirectly associated with the CIA (as thoroughly discussed by Frances Stonor Saunders in her book The Cultural Cold War). The term was used in the context of the Cold War to promote the idea that the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were the same thing or very similar. It served the interests of the US and Western European countries.
Now to call our userbase racist, I would expect at least further explanation. We have very strict moderation, and racist garbage is severely dealt with. So if you seen someone being racist in Lemmygrad, please let me know. I’m an admin there, and we could quickly resolve this. If you haven’t, then you should quietly think with yourself why you are lying to others here. You hate us based on a lie?
Bro, liberal IS a race. By Dunkin’ on Liberals, you might as well be genociding Palestinians .
Michael Parenti: Left anti-communism: The Unkindest Cut
I pretty much enjoy most of what I see from hexbear, but I have blocked a bunch of stuff from lemmygrad.
I get blocking hexbear, I get blocking grad and hexbear, but blocking grad but not hexbear? Why?
With how much anticommunism goes down in the federation I sometimes wish the developers would hide some code that would kick people who do this off the entire federation. Don’t use a fucking communist platform to get away from the failing capitalist one and then spend all your time being McCarthy’s left nutsack. I know that’s never going to happen because that goes against the developer’s values, but god damn would it be justified as fuck if it happened, and it would stop like 99.9999% of the toxicity and CSAM that gets posted here.
Who said this is a communist platform?
It was literally created to be reddit without the capitalism. You didn’t think what the implications of that meant?
It’s a federated platform… it can be whatever the instance hosts want it to be.
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I don’t think the average person cares about the FOSS principles that the instance software was built upon, they probably care that it just works and receives updates. People will come for the content.
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Who said this is a liberal platform?
Nobody. You’re the only person trying to define what platform you believe lemmy to be.
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Liberal westerners and crybullying, name a more iconic duo that isn’t crackers and misquoting failed philosophies of non-violence
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Liberals.
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