I didn’t mean for this post to cause a bunch of arguing in the comments =(
I thought this was just some gallows humor (e.g. “Everything’s lovely except that I have to fear for my safety all the time”) type of shitpost that sounded similar to comments I’ve heard from women irl a lot.
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I’m sorry it bothers you like that.
I personally don’t feel alienated or attacked at all by the kinds of comments you are describing. When I see a comment like “men murder women”, I think of it in the same kind of way comments like “humans are horrible” or “Australians are racist” or “young people have no attention span”… That is to say it describes a trend or someone’s perception of a tendency but does not refer to any specific individual.
People aren’t saying these things to attack you. They are saying them to communicate their own feelings of being unsafe. And to be frank, feeling that you shouldn’t go for a walk at night because it is too dangerous is a pretty serious thing which has obvious negative effects - and the concern is based in reality. It isn’t just a perception problem. So we should take these comments seriously - not just complain about the people saying them.
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Imagine if you had to deal with actually being targeted as a minority or woman. You’d be so mad, dude.
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I’m not angry at women for fearing violent abuse from men. I think you’re misdirecting this A LOT. If as a person you hear ‘‘men might kill me’’ and you think ‘‘poor poor men, why can’t they catch a break’’ your problem isn’t passive adittudes to bigotry, it’s having no idea that other people have problems and fears and threats and they are as upset about them as you would be in their shoes.
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Are you mad at trans people when they say they aren’t going to be safe in a men’s bathroom? Because they won’t be. I Don’t know why it’s the man part of the statement that you are so upset by. I’m also a man. I’m not hurt by this entirely justified fear that women have.
AGAIN. You are attacking women for fearing men, because they aren’t being sensitive enough to men while expressing fear for their life. This isn’t about men’s feelings. It’s about the women’s feelings. It’s OK to express entirely justified fears.
I’ve been a person who’s had to help document stalking, to help get restraining orders, to put policy in place to prevent men targeting young women. This is a part of running any open to the public business where women work, or frequent. You have to know this as a matter of business management that when a worker or shopper says ‘‘I don’t know this man following or talking to me, and I’m getting scared’’ that you need to take it seriously, and also be aware your two steps behind. It shouldn’t get to that point.
You have to notice when a guy comes in twice to talk to the same cashier, you have to pull them off the floor everytime he comes back, and if he asks once about that staff member, you HAVE to start paperwork. That’s the crucial point. That’s where if you do nothing, someone can get hurt or killed.
THAT EARLY is when you need to have paperwork, offical trespassing complaints, restraining orders, that’s when you need to know that man has been pushed back enough to pull his head out of his ass and realize the high school or college age girl at a shirt folding store isn’t going to fall in love with him, and some pressure to let him know, you’ve already been caught, you can’t get away with it, you’ll never get away with it.
Women deal with this EVERY SINGLE DAY they go out into public alone. I had to learn this. I had no idea it was this bad, I childishly thought cat calling was a thing that only happened in like three different streets in NYC or Boston. Not so. There’s guys with a wife and kids in his 40s driving to work in my small town who will roll down their window and scream obscene things at high school kids they think are hot walking to school.
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How many examples are there of trans people raping children?
How many examples of men raping women are there?
I’m a male and I’m not getting wounding up about this. Grow up.
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I just think you sound a bit silly mate.
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Men, statistically, actually might kill you. Transgender people, statistically, aren’t going to rape your kids. You’re including yourself when women talk about negative experiences from men when you don’t have to. Again, men ≠ all men including you.
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Statistically, the number of transgender people who are going to rape your kids is fuckin’ none. The chances of you being murdered at night are slim but a lot less slim, enough so that everyone (but especially women as they’re often the targets of sexual violence) have to have to take it into consideration, and the ones doing it are almost entirely men. It becomes even less slim and downright common if you substitute murder with any other violence-based verb.
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You dress like a girl, experience what most female-presenting people experience, and you still don’t fucking understand. Amazing. Tell me, was it women cat calling you and threatening to rape you? Or was it other men? If so, this bigotry wasn’t bigotry against men, it was bigotry against a man who isn’t masculine enough for other men’s standards. Bigotry against a man thought to be a woman by other men. The problem once again remains toxic masculinity manifested in men, or to put it simply, men.
I’m angry for the discrimination you’ve experienced, but I’m not directing it toward women who are speaking about experiencing the same things you have at the hands of men, the way you are in this thread.
Your problem is that you are assuming when we say “men” we’re including you and literally every other man in existence. Words have meanings and there’s a reason why we’re not specifically using “all.”
You’re not going to be treated well for being feminine-presenting until misogyny is defeated, and that isn’t going to happen until guys like you stop being dismissive of women’s experiences because you get defensive on behalf of all men for no fucking reason.
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By choosing to ignore that men are the primary offenders of violence not just against women but in general, only viewing it as an individual failings, we won’t be able to make any progress toward remedying the actual problem at hand. Men are socialized under patriarchy, it gives many of them (not all of them and I’m tired of having to say this) a poor sense of emotional regulation and an even poorer view of women as equal human beings who are deserving of fair treatment. You’re the one who doesn’t want to understand, and your point of view services the unjust status quo that thinks that crime should be addressed after it’s committed rather than addressing the social conditions of the source.
It’s as though you’re plugging your ears and pretending inequality between men and women, and the issues that stem from that don’t exist.
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Men are being driven to the right because of propagandists like you parroting MRA and incel rhetoric that is designed to appear empathetic toward men’s issues (which are often everyone’s issues under the current status quo being presented as men-only issues) while steering them away from understanding the roots of (patriarchy) and solutions to (feminism) the problem.
If right wingers used statistics they wouldn’t come to the conclusions they do because reality has a left wing bias and statistics don’t back up their claims.
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You are not alone in feeling that. Everyone being angry about this in here probably feels the same. And it’s incredibly ingenuine to on one hand say this post communicates feelings about fear of going outside and/or men, while simultaneously dismissing feelings of anger at being called a murderer.
My own comment being dismissive of this post (because it’s a shitpost, that’s the literal community here) was deleted.
Another one where I say “women lie” is being downvoted and it was (softly) implied I’m a murderer for saying this (The comment says “You are the man we are afraid of”, context is “men like to murder” as of the OP). The reply and votes to the “women lie” one means people do in fact notice that an overgeneralization hurts. They just don’t care if it hurts men. Presumably because “men are murderers” and are thus not allowed a voice besides belittling themselves.
It’s just sad.
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I get that. I found myself on the side of vegans after a post mocked them for being a vegan while the nature they’re protecting is not, and comments then clowning on the vegans that showed up. “How do you know they’re vegan? They’ll tell you.” Kind of stuff. I’m not vegan but I really don’t like this kind of baiting.
My comments were way better received then.
I like what you wrote in the other comment, btw.
the thing is, nobody here is being dismissive of men’s issues, because this thread is not a conversation about men’s issues. men are coming in here and dismissing women’s issues.
you guys never seem to talk about this on your own accord, but rather only when it’s to bring down women for talking about the realities they face. it makes it difficult to believe that any of you here sincerely care about what you claim to.
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yes, a comment about your experiences and feelings as a man under a thread about women’s experiences. i’m staying on the topic hand.
i shouldn’t have to explain to you why going “okay but what about men” every time women talk about their experiences is problematic and dismissive.
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Men are at fault though. Women aren’t the ones attacking women, men are. Almost entirely. Who are they therefore supposed to blame so that your fee-fees don’t get hurt? And for the last fucking time, “men” doesn’t mean all men including you.
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the difference is your generalization isn’t based in statistical fact. women who lie about false rape accusations (i assume that’s what you’re trying to get at here) are such an unfathomably small minority that no man ever has to live their life considering it. by saying that this is something women in do in equivalence to what women are saying men do, you’re implying otherwise and implying the authenticity of countless women’s experiences with sexual violence at the hands of men is invalid. experiences which are already seldom believed by the people who need to hear it.
on the other hand, a substantial amount of women experience sexual violence from men. it’s statistically common enough that women have to live in fear and that conventional wisdom has long held that women should not go out at night alone, carry mace, etc. etc. etc.
bottom line is, it’s a false equivalency that serves only to invalidate the reality women must face, and what you’re trying to equate it to is that reality. you are harming women by doing this.
it does not harm men to point out what a significant enough amount of them to be dangerous to women at large are doing. you are not personally affected by women saying that men are violent or murderers, but women are personally affected by your exaggerated claims of dishonesty when they speak out against this violence that they are statistically far more likely to experience.
Your assumption is yours to make, I was being deliberately ambiguous. My point was “men like murdering” sounds like a fact, but isn’t. Just as “women lie” sounds like a fact, but isn’t.
The OP isn’t, either. There is no difference. Both are damaging overgeneralizations. Even though more women (because its easier) do lie (again, ambiguous. Can be about how their food tasted) way more often than men do murder, both are damaging overgeneralizations. One more than the other.
Also:
You are referencing statistics. For the second time. Provide them.
No, you just feel like that. Me arguing that I don’t want to be called a murderer because of my penis is not a downplay of rape. You did that part all on your own.
That’s a lie. Also, how does that fit in with me harming women by pointing something out? We are talking about the sentence “men like murder”, which is rightfully being under fire. You could say this is a shitpost, but your comment is not.
Lie. Here you also try to justify the post as the truth. Just for future reference.
How? And how am I not affected by you denying my experience?
Are you talking about rape or murder? If you talk about murder, like the OP, that’s again a lie.
You, in particular, are not being called a murderer, because the OP clearly says “men” and not “all men.” You are however contributing to the problem by being dismissive and making a discussion about women’s safety about you, which is why women should be afraid of you since you are clearly self-serving and have no empathy for and understanding of their plight.
Please explain to me how women talking about violence from men affects you personally. I can tell you how exaggerating your claim is harmful toward women, since because of the disproportionate violence and sexual abuse they face from men, they often find themselves having to speak on their experiences, and often aren’t believed thanks to unfounded biases like yours.
The difference is that your claim is grossly exaggerated to appear equal to the OP’s claim, which actually has statistic validity. The OP’s only mistake is specifying murder, which isn’t the only threat of violence at the hands of men a woman would potentially (and has a good chance of having to) face walking alone at night, but anyone who isn’t 12 should be able to understand the use of hyperbole in a motherfucking shitpost. The intention is clear. it is not safe for women because of violence from men.
Here are the statistics: https://rainn.org/statistics/scope-problem, https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-42/table-42.xls, https://www.statista.com/statistics/251886/murder-offenders-in-the-us-by-gender/
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whatever helps you sleep at night bro
You are being disingenuous again. Because you keep piling up new things and also because:
If that were the case, why did you find fault at the assumed statement of “women lie about rape”? I didn’t say “all”. If you believed what you just wrote to be true, you wouldn’t have brought this up. The OP was a blanket statement that included me. For nothing other than having a penis. Also, don’t forget that one comment that implied this to me directly.
Yeah, no. Learn how to make a discussion without accusations, like the accusation that was done in the OP, and then you can argue that. I realize you didn’t make the initial accusation, but you are defending it, and are also trying to make it into a “woman experience” which should somehow make it above reproach. That’s low.
Defending myself being called a murderer is self-serving and makes me without empathy and women should be afraid of me. What?
Oh, depends. If a friend asks for help in a current situation I can lend a helping hand. If a friend experienced something like this I can lend an ear and a shoulder. On the internet I can at least listen. And I do.
In this case someone was accusing me of being a murderer for having a penis, and you keep telling me that that’s not what’s happening. If you want to be listened to by me you need to tone down the accusations. To zero. Except if I did something, then I will take the blame. But I didn’t, so I won’t.
Then don’t exaggerate it. What does that have to do with me? Also, you are cultivating a bias in me right now, not unfounded. It does only include you, in case that makes you feel better.
It is not, because the OP has none. Even though men murder women more often than women murder women (which is a statistical truth), this isn’t what was stated in the OP. “Men love to commit murder” was the OP. There is no fact stated. Definitely not a statistically backed one.
The OP made many mistakes which qualified it as a proper shitpost. I am not condemning that, I just don’t like it, as stated. I am condemning you.
That is the intended feeling, yes. Incredibly bad delivery, a shitpost even, but yeah that’s it. Feel free to feel, I guess.
Put the statistics into the relevant parts of your comment next time. I won’t build your argument for you.
This will be my last reply in this particular thread. I guess anyone reading won’t be reading the essays we wrote, and I’m feeling you are arguing in bad faith here. Have a nice day.
because while saying “men” does not imply all men, the implication persists that it’s an issue coming from men as a demographic predominantly, which is a fact backed up by evidence. your accusation that women lie about their experiences has no basis in fact. it’s just a vibes-based point used by incels to discredit women speaking out against the horrors they face from, get this, MEN.
the whole point of this post and what every dumbass man in this thread seems to be missing is that murder and other forms of violence are mostly coming from one particular demographic, men. not any other demographic, and that’s why we single out men in particular. not because all men are doing it, but because men in general are doing it compared to everyone else. women don’t have to walk the streets in fear of women and i’m sure you understand that well.
i suppose when people talk about systemic racism being upheld by the police you come in and go “well not all cops are like that” as if that adds anything to the discussion at hand.
in your initial post that i replied to, you were complaining that you’ve been equated to a murderer because someone told you “You are the man we are afraid of.” the reason for that is because you’ve come into a thread about women’s negative (and factual) experiences due to the violence of men, and tried to make it about your precious fee-fees. this happens in every single discussion women have about what they face online, men always come in and try to steer the conversation away from the original topic and make it about men. men who do this kind of thing show no empathy or compassion for what women face, and yes, that’s indeed frightening.
my claims are not exaggerated because they’re backed up by evidence that suggests violence against women from men is a significantly large occurrence, large enough that women in general have to fear for their safety. like i said before, you’re drawing a false equivalency by comparing it to your claim that “women lie.” these are not equal issues in scope at all.
yup, it was written in a way that’s humorous and hyperbolic but the point was only lost on the dweebs in this thread who have no first-hand experience with what she’s talking about. i couldn’t say if the men who commit murder “love” to do it, but the fact remains that men do it, more than any other demographic, which is what the post is clearly trying to convey. i’m not sure how else you would interpret it unless you’re just being pedantic. “yeah, men are committing all these murders, but have you considered that they don’t actually love to do it like the OP said? :smuglord:” <- this is you
so you do understand the intention then, good. frankly, any shitpost that makes misogynists show their asses is a quality shitpost in my book. i haven’t been arguing in bad faith. i genuinely still stand by my point of view and while i don’t expect to convince any of the salty dudebros in this thread that they’re being problematic, i hope at least i can contribute a little bit to preventing the flow of disinformation, fallacies, and downright lies that make up MRA talking points. have a nice day.
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When you make a sweeping statement about women being dishonest in their accusations, this is unfounded. Men are statistically extremely unlikely to be falsely accused of sexual violence by a woman. A man does not need to consider women to be a potential threat.
When you make a sweeping statement about men being violent against women, this is not unfounded. Women are statistically very likely to experience violence from men. That doesn’t mean all or even a majority of men, but enough that women have to consider men to be a potential threat.
By trying to equate the two, you serve only to dismiss the credibility of very often real experiences from women. This harms women very much, especially in a society where they’re already seldom believed by the people who need to hear them, such as the authorities.
It is not sexism toward men to point out that men are the ones committing violence against women specifically, it’s a fact backed up by evidence. She said men because it’s not a woman who is realistically going to be a threat to her. Men ≠ all men. Also, the national murder statistics point to men specifically being the problem so I hardly see what the difference is.
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No, because I also take into consideration the reasons for those statistics. Black people are demonstrably discriminated against and profiled by authorities, and are often suspected of, arrested and even convicted for crimes they did not commit.
The police, an entity dominated by men, do not unfairly discriminate against men. Men are actually committing these acts of violence against women, and we have non-police statistics that corroborate this, unlike the police statistics for racial minorities.
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There is actual evidence of discrimination against racial minorities from the authorities, not discrimination against men, of whom the authorities are predominately comprised of. And as I said before, on the matter of violence against women, the authorities’ crime statistics are not the only evidence corroborating this. I’ve posted links to different sources throughout the thread if you care to look.
I think you must be assuming my gender because these are not my problems. I’m not a woman. I don’t need to be to speak out against discrimination against women from men. And I agree, we can’t fix this without the cooperation of men, of whom can hold other men accountable, because as you and many others in this thread have shown, men won’t listen to women about this at all.