Now go that and create a model for it applicable to every real world use case that
That wasn’t your claim. You said all lossy compression is useless. Is a pixel there that was in the source? It’s a test that anyone can agree on. Which is beside the point that a better quality camera is an objectively testable feature.
That two cameras could give images that are so close as to result in subjective judgement as to which is better isn’t what we are discussing. Unless you are going to get weird and claim you prefer a blurry pixelated image.
Those lack depth and specific information, i wouldn’t be making that point if that wasn’t a problem
Because it isn’t a problem! If you want to look at the Android source code and see how it multi threads based on the number big cores and little cores you can. But an end user does not need to read that documentation to use their phone. It is completely transparent to the phone user.
Nor is how the camera software distributes control to various camera modules a problem for end users. How the camera takes the photo is completely transparent to the end user.
i’d much rather not spend modern premiums to get features that are a decade old.
Most of those 100 million cameras purchasers every year were not buying a camera for the first time in their life. Most were upgrading from their old camera. They bought the new camera to take better photos.
I already linked the study that showed people buy new phones primarily to take better photos.
Especially when i can buy a modern used camera for a few hundred bucks, and get image quality MILES better
The best camera is the one you have with you. You claimed you almost never take photos but now you are claiming you would buy another gadget to carry around all the time?
this isn’t true. Unless you place the cameras in the EXACT same location, there will be differences in parallax.
Yes a professional comparing a non zoomed and zoomed could tell they were taken from a different position. So what? The end user doesn’t need to care. The UI is pinch to zoom. That’s it.
Besides the actual parallax change will be smaller than a human hand is capable of being steady. The lenses are 1cm apart. Taking a picture 10 m away ( and really you would use zoom for things much farther ) yields an angle change of .01 degrees. Hand motion is why photographers have the 1/f rule. Your hands can’t keep a camera perfectly steady.
And besides, maybe i dont want it to forcibly switch, maybe i want to have control over the hardware i paid for and own?
Then download a pro camera app. But your original claim that extra lenses are a burden on the end user is false. The default camera UI presents a seamless UI to the user just like the user doesn’t have to know how many and what types of cores are in their phone in order to use it.
You can’t tell me that the minor difference in quality between camera A and B is significant enough to warrant B over A or vice versa.
Is your claim that there is absolutely no measurable difference between any cameras ever? Because that’s what you are arguing.
I claim my Pixel 7pro camera is objectively better than the camera in my 11 year old Galaxy Nexus. This isn’t iPhone 15 vs Pixel 8 pro where both are so equally matched that it becomes subjective.
You claimed you don’t see a need for more than one lens on a smartphone. I explained the technical reasons why phones have use multiple lenses to do what compact digital cameras can do with one lens.
Consumer now buy smartphones every few years for the better camera just like they bought better cameras every few years before smartphones existed.
as an analogue to your point about the camera being objectively better. My point is that you can’t boil everything down to objective facts, even if it is true, there are a number of other variables.
Is a pixel there that was in the source?
With lossy compression, that quite literally gets thrown out the window the second it’s used. If that’s the standard then all lossy compression is bad. The question is at what point, does N amount of deviation from the original image, make it noticeably different from the original image, to the point that it negatively affects the image more than the space it saves. That’s the hard part to quantify. And yet we use lossy compression everywhere. Literally nobody can agree what standard of compression is acceptable. I for one never touch HW accelerated encoding because it’s not efficient, and introduces artifacts. Yet other people are perfectly content using it. I would much rather store the original source file, even if it’s insanely big, over HW encoding it down to something more manageable, and potentially forever altering that file.
That two cameras could give images that are so close as to result in subjective judgement as to which is better isn’t what we are discussing. Unless you are going to get weird and claim you prefer a blurry pixelated image.
It depends on what standardized photo testing you use. If i can take a photo roughly 2-10 feet in front of me, and it looks decent. I do not care about anything else. If it’s outside of that range my eyesight is bad enough it doesn’t matter anyway. A phone with a built in zoom lense might be able to take better far shot photos. But i never take those, so it’s useless to me.
How the camera takes the photo is completely transparent to the end user.
i mean, if we include photo processing, that’s just not true, unless major phone manufacturers have started open sourcing their software since i last checked.
I already linked the study that showed people buy new phones primarily to take better photos.
i didnt look at it, but im not going to discount it either, frankly i just don’t care. I just don’t think more than like 30-40% of why people buy a new phone is to take better photos, maybe thats how they justify spending that money to themselves, i could see that. But JUST for better photos? idk. Maybe i’m just a bad capitalist who doesnt spend enough money.
You claimed you almost never take photos but now you are claiming you would buy another gadget to carry around all the time?
as you already said "the best camera is the one you have with you, you continually brought up editing, and real world use cases where having a better camera would make sense. Which is where i would use that actual camera, i just don’t really care about the quality of the pictures i take that aren’t supposed to be actual media. It’s fine enough as is. Being any better isn’t going to appreciably change that.
But your original claim that extra lenses are a burden on the end user is false.
i didn’t say that, i just stated that at a certain point, an end user is going to stop caring about a “feature” when it’s feature set is severely convoluted. Maybe i actually just care about what i spend my money on, and other people don’t. But i like knowing what im buying, before i spend my money on it.
Is your claim that there is absolutely no measurable difference between any cameras ever?
no my claim is that anything that is 80% efficacy is going to be more than fine, your claim is that 99% efficacy is worse than 100% efficacy, which is true, but not perceptible.
I claim my Pixel 7pro camera is objectively better than the camera in my 11 year old Galaxy Nexus.
i claim my iphone 5 as having a better camera than the leapfrog leappad. My point there, even though you have butchered it incredibly, is quite literally the difference between a pixel 8 and an iphone 15. You can’t go back to before multi cameras, because a modern single camera phone will still have improved since then.
You claimed you don’t see a need for more than one lens on a smartphone.
i know, but for the same reason that i don’t care about a 4090 ti being faster than a 1070 due to its price being fascinatingly high. I don’t care about phones with more than one camera having better camera quality. I just dont want that feature.
Literally this entire thread started with “still don’t understand the appeal of multi camera phones” or something like that, it’s paraphrased. I know there are technical reasons one would do that, but i just can’t justify it for what it provides. Unless i see an actual proper realistic breakdown, of which exactly NONE exist. So i couldn’t line them up even if i wanted to. I’m just left to my own devices to see what else could be done. And so i just dont care. Same reason i dont care about phones having high refresh rates, it just wastes processing power, it feels smoother sure. I don’t really care though. I use it like 10 minutes out of my day maybe. Swiping sideways at 90hz doesn’t matter if i dont use it anyway. (dont bother explaining the difference to me, because i own multiple 144hz displays, i already know.)
That wasn’t your claim. You said all lossy compression is useless. Is a pixel there that was in the source? It’s a test that anyone can agree on. Which is beside the point that a better quality camera is an objectively testable feature.
That two cameras could give images that are so close as to result in subjective judgement as to which is better isn’t what we are discussing. Unless you are going to get weird and claim you prefer a blurry pixelated image.
Because it isn’t a problem! If you want to look at the Android source code and see how it multi threads based on the number big cores and little cores you can. But an end user does not need to read that documentation to use their phone. It is completely transparent to the phone user.
Nor is how the camera software distributes control to various camera modules a problem for end users. How the camera takes the photo is completely transparent to the end user.
Most of those 100 million cameras purchasers every year were not buying a camera for the first time in their life. Most were upgrading from their old camera. They bought the new camera to take better photos.
I already linked the study that showed people buy new phones primarily to take better photos.
The best camera is the one you have with you. You claimed you almost never take photos but now you are claiming you would buy another gadget to carry around all the time?
Yes a professional comparing a non zoomed and zoomed could tell they were taken from a different position. So what? The end user doesn’t need to care. The UI is pinch to zoom. That’s it.
Besides the actual parallax change will be smaller than a human hand is capable of being steady. The lenses are 1cm apart. Taking a picture 10 m away ( and really you would use zoom for things much farther ) yields an angle change of .01 degrees. Hand motion is why photographers have the 1/f rule. Your hands can’t keep a camera perfectly steady.
Then download a pro camera app. But your original claim that extra lenses are a burden on the end user is false. The default camera UI presents a seamless UI to the user just like the user doesn’t have to know how many and what types of cores are in their phone in order to use it.
Is your claim that there is absolutely no measurable difference between any cameras ever? Because that’s what you are arguing.
I claim my Pixel 7pro camera is objectively better than the camera in my 11 year old Galaxy Nexus. This isn’t iPhone 15 vs Pixel 8 pro where both are so equally matched that it becomes subjective.
You claimed you don’t see a need for more than one lens on a smartphone. I explained the technical reasons why phones have use multiple lenses to do what compact digital cameras can do with one lens.
Consumer now buy smartphones every few years for the better camera just like they bought better cameras every few years before smartphones existed.
as an analogue to your point about the camera being objectively better. My point is that you can’t boil everything down to objective facts, even if it is true, there are a number of other variables.
With lossy compression, that quite literally gets thrown out the window the second it’s used. If that’s the standard then all lossy compression is bad. The question is at what point, does N amount of deviation from the original image, make it noticeably different from the original image, to the point that it negatively affects the image more than the space it saves. That’s the hard part to quantify. And yet we use lossy compression everywhere. Literally nobody can agree what standard of compression is acceptable. I for one never touch HW accelerated encoding because it’s not efficient, and introduces artifacts. Yet other people are perfectly content using it. I would much rather store the original source file, even if it’s insanely big, over HW encoding it down to something more manageable, and potentially forever altering that file.
It depends on what standardized photo testing you use. If i can take a photo roughly 2-10 feet in front of me, and it looks decent. I do not care about anything else. If it’s outside of that range my eyesight is bad enough it doesn’t matter anyway. A phone with a built in zoom lense might be able to take better far shot photos. But i never take those, so it’s useless to me.
i mean, if we include photo processing, that’s just not true, unless major phone manufacturers have started open sourcing their software since i last checked.
i didnt look at it, but im not going to discount it either, frankly i just don’t care. I just don’t think more than like 30-40% of why people buy a new phone is to take better photos, maybe thats how they justify spending that money to themselves, i could see that. But JUST for better photos? idk. Maybe i’m just a bad capitalist who doesnt spend enough money.
as you already said "the best camera is the one you have with you, you continually brought up editing, and real world use cases where having a better camera would make sense. Which is where i would use that actual camera, i just don’t really care about the quality of the pictures i take that aren’t supposed to be actual media. It’s fine enough as is. Being any better isn’t going to appreciably change that.
i didn’t say that, i just stated that at a certain point, an end user is going to stop caring about a “feature” when it’s feature set is severely convoluted. Maybe i actually just care about what i spend my money on, and other people don’t. But i like knowing what im buying, before i spend my money on it.
no my claim is that anything that is 80% efficacy is going to be more than fine, your claim is that 99% efficacy is worse than 100% efficacy, which is true, but not perceptible.
i claim my iphone 5 as having a better camera than the leapfrog leappad. My point there, even though you have butchered it incredibly, is quite literally the difference between a pixel 8 and an iphone 15. You can’t go back to before multi cameras, because a modern single camera phone will still have improved since then.
i know, but for the same reason that i don’t care about a 4090 ti being faster than a 1070 due to its price being fascinatingly high. I don’t care about phones with more than one camera having better camera quality. I just dont want that feature.
Literally this entire thread started with “still don’t understand the appeal of multi camera phones” or something like that, it’s paraphrased. I know there are technical reasons one would do that, but i just can’t justify it for what it provides. Unless i see an actual proper realistic breakdown, of which exactly NONE exist. So i couldn’t line them up even if i wanted to. I’m just left to my own devices to see what else could be done. And so i just dont care. Same reason i dont care about phones having high refresh rates, it just wastes processing power, it feels smoother sure. I don’t really care though. I use it like 10 minutes out of my day maybe. Swiping sideways at 90hz doesn’t matter if i dont use it anyway. (dont bother explaining the difference to me, because i own multiple 144hz displays, i already know.)