I’ve had a certain debate a few times where you might say we argue over the “semantics” of the meat industry.
I am what you would call a vegetarian. While vegetarians won’t eat things that caused harm to produce, a vegan won’t eat anything having to do with an animal. A lot of those who would fall under the latter category hate us because they say anything that remotely resembles someone enjoying an animal product is supporting the meat industry which then kills animals, which means merely eating an animal product makes someone a murderer.
Meanwhile, there’s this concept many call piracy. It’s the idea that, as the meme proverbially puts it, “you can download a car”. The idea here, which I say in the way I do because there’s still an ongoing debate about it, is that it affects nobody. But then there’s the whole industry thing I mentioned. People on the other side of the debate often say “well what about the industry”. I’m not sure where on the scale in this topic you might put me, but I feel like there’s a glaring contradiction here. When it comes to animals, people think of the industry, but otherwise that’s not a factor.
My question is… why?
I don’t really understand why you’re comparing these two things? One is a group of people refraining from consumption of certain goods for personal reasons - health, ethics, climate impact, whatever. The other is a group of people consuming arguably more goods than they (we tbh) deserve since we’re not willing or able to pay for it for one reason or another.
A better analogy would be comparing piracy to… I don’t know, a veg-eater of whatever type who still enjoys the taste of bacon and resorts to stealing it because it’s better to hurt the meat industry than to pay? It’s a product that person really doesn’t really need and absolutely would have never paid for, yet the person still wants it and obtains it in a way that hurts the industry.
(The analogy doesn’t hold up since stealing physical goods has a different impact than distributing digital copies, but it’s the best I’ve got off the cuff)
E: okay, after reading your other comments, I’m both confident this didn’t address the point you wanted and confident I don’t really understand your deal well enough to do so. Both of these groups have some members who have a problem with industry practices and others who are into their chosen lifestyle for other reasons. It seems like you’ve made some odd decisions about which groups are most prevalent among each and are framing your premise around that, and I don’t think we’re going to see eye-to-eye on it when the premise is Like This.
Or are you trying to say veganism should be more widely accepted because “DRM is wrong” is roughly equivalent to “animal suffering is wrong” re: “industry bad”?
The other is a group of people consuming arguably more goods than they (we tbh) deserve since we’re not willing or able to pay for it for one reason or another.
This is a loaded way to phrase this.
The other is a group of people consuming goods that they don’t pay for, for one reason or another.
Hey man, I’m willing to be honest about what I do. I’m not entitled to consume that media just because it exists, and I’m not going to beat around the bush about that.
You did leave out the lack of legal access being a motivator for piracy.
Deserving is also an odd differentiation because people need to eat, and they have needs about participating in society. Maybe a movie pirate doesn’t need to access that particular movie but when their access is hampered in general, their ability to engage in discourse with their peers is hampered.
Okay but seriously, what is this pedantry even? I wasn’t trying to put forth some all-encompassing thesis of every reason people might pirate, nor do I accept that “needs to be in on all the current memes” is some reason one is entitled to media. And neither point has anything to do with the discussion we’re having with OP.
Bizarre as heck tangent.
The way you phrased your sentence about piracy was biased against pirates. You were saying these moral choices aren’t similar, I’m trying to refute that, and I’m saying they are similar.
It’s not even current memes. If all my co-workers watched some obscure regional television decades ago, how am I supposed to understand the references they make without pirating the media? At what point do these creative products belong to society instead of a specific individual?
OP is talking about how there’s a different perception of the morality of these things, and the lesser harm(pirating) is being viewed on more harshly than (not being a vegetarian). This is the core of that discussion.
Vegans are all about telling you what you can’t do.
Pirates are all about telling you what you can do.
People like having stuff for free. People don’t like being told what is or isn’t wrong and what they should or shouldn’t do.
I also don’t understand the comparison to piracy but I think being a vegetarian is definitely more ethical than being an omnivore as long as you don’t overcompensate meat with other animal products. If you stop eating chicken and in exchange start to eat an additional 3 eggs a day, that’s probably worse for animals and nature.
If you just cut back on meat and replace it with vegan alternatives while eating the same amount of cheese, eggs etc. as before it DOES have a positive impact and we should appeciate one’s efforts.
Hell, even flexitarians have a positive impact. Right now, there’s around 90% omnivores worldwide. If all these omnivores reduced their consumption of animal products by let’s say 20%, it would have a far bigger impact than another 2% going full blown vegan.
Furthermore, it can be tough to go vegan all of a sudden. It takes time to change your diet, learn about healthy protein sources, essential nutrients and stuff. Going flexitarian first, then vegetarian and potentially vegan allows you to take one step at a time.
Also being vegan is not where it ends in terms of caring for the environment. You can keep reducing your personal footprint indefinitely. No more flights, no car, less electricity, less shopping. Everything helps. And everyone should try to contribute in the way that feels the most manageable for your personal circumstances.
Your last paragraph makes me want to ask… I am a frequent user of public transport, partially because I couldn’t get myself into driving. Would you say public transport is to actual transport and to the climate as eating harmless animal products is to eating harmful animal products and the well-being of animals?
I think it’s always about absolutes in the end. If a vegan drives by car 100000 miles and takes several flights a year that’s definitely worse than an omnivore staying at home all day. Ideally, you stay at or around home AND be a vegan AND only buy second hand AND avoid electronics etc.
If you are interested in how your personal lifestyle ranks against the average, just google for CO2 footprint calculator. If you want to do a good one, it will take at least 30 minutes as you have to answer quite some questions. This will give you not only an indication of where you are right now but also in which areas you have most room for improvement.
I think if everyone seriously tries their best and actually tried to improve their lifestyle it would have an immense impact. Unfortunately, most people seem to just blame “the industry” or “the politicians”. Of couse, they also play a role but we’ll never get a better world overall, if people aren’t willing to cut back on their lifestyle. And cutting back involves many many aspects. Veganism ist just one of them.
