If you will allow me, I beg to differ: violence is the APPROPRIATE response, sometimes - rarely but not never. e.g., if you had a child who was being mauled by a dog, wouldn’t you go to their aid, and strike the dog to get it to go away? Of course you would - any sane, responsible person would.
These people are being brainwashed into thinking that by rising up, they are protecting the “true America”. Their heartfelt desire to protect things is GOOD. Their willingness to rise up and actually do something is GOOD. They are not complacent - they are literal heroes, in their own minds at least, but also called thus by those they respect, on the television, in the radio, in the “news” sources they choose to read, etc.
That is what is so twisted about the whole thing - it is not their badness or weaknesses that are being exploited (greed, lust, laziness, etc.), so much as their STRENGTHS, which are being re-directed towards an end that those who employ violence have not bothered to think through and understand. There IS a weakness involved, probably several (crowd mentality, giving up your agency to another rather than questioning everything - e.g. I Thessalonians 5:21 commands, though many preachers, especially evangelical Christianity, behind the pulpits in the Heartland of America do not teach that anymore… and instead are laying out the exact opposite message), but I do not think these people are themselves insane, so much as they are merely “normal”.
Which is not to say that the overall effect is not insanity, ofc.
And yeah I suspect the “Americans first” thing would be more the previous generation, like during WWI & II, when people had to stand together regardless of political affiliation, against an outside aggressor. Whereas today, that outside aggressor has patiently lain in wait for so long that the call (for violence) is now coming from inside our own house… even if its’ true origin derives from outside of it, e.g. Faux News dictating the talking points that Americans should follow, even if those came originally from Russia. Even if the latter country were to cease to exist literally today, the damage has already been done, and people in the USA now think how they wanted them to; but conversely even if the Republican party were to cease to exist today, those outside forces would continue to push for their desired ends… It is pressure from outside, and yet people today do not see it as that, and willingly go along with it.
Well of course you’re welcome to differ, I enjoy your points of view and I’m not the sort who gets offended because of a differing point of view; in fact, I welcome it.
You’re right, there are times violence might be necessary, and yes of course I’d intervene if a violence situation threatened any of my family members or pets. I don’t condone violence at all but I get how it sometimes can happen anyway.
Yet I can’t really condone willful violence against government officials, no matter how wrong-headed their actions may seem. I know some people believe that violence is justified when they are being disenfranchised, but I say that only brings about more misery for everyone.
But I agree with your points about outside aggressors having waited patiently for so long and now are having a field day. Again I totally am against it, waving weapons around and threatening LGBTQ people for being who they are, for example - that is never OK. I hate to see the worst of America being the example that others aspire to follow.
All I can say is, I can only do my part not to contribute to the violent attitude out there. Change is a process that requires small steps, not big acts of violence. Hopefully we can work together again as one people at being a more inclusive and non-violent nation.
We might agree more than we are letting on. I am doing a horrible job explaining my position though:-(. For one, I think we both agree that hypothetically there are SOMETIMES cases that only violence can solve, and then the real trick is to figure out when & where those cases are, yet they are EXCEEDINGLY rare and caution is best advised until people are ABSOLUTELY certain. And politically speaking, they almost never happen, but when they do they involve great deliberation and care, e.g. the USA entering into WWI and WWII in order to stop the spread of aggressive, violent nations at the expense of our allies; or like Ukranians defending their homeland from an imminent and ongoing invasion attempt.
But none of that describes what happened on January 6. I mean, how does defecating on a desk “protect the constitution”? Or smashing random stuff, rioting, looting, or crushing a police officer literally to death? Some of the people there, during the earlier peaceful phase, truly just wanted their voices to be heard, while others just were angry and took the excuse to do violence. But if someone truly wanted to “protect the constitution” as they claimed, then I happen to think that it might be worth, you know, reading it first!? Which takes real effort - maybe literal years of study in order to fully understand the context and all parts involved.
I suppose what I was trying to say then is that these outside agitators take a very real, honest, and good desire to do something - protect the homeland from badness - but twist it into conveying that you do NOT need to do the hard stuff like “study”, and instead you can simply show up at such and such an address at such and such a time, and your presence alone will be mostly enough. Bonus points for bringing guns, whether loaded or not they make a good “tough” image. Some very few people go a step further and do the actual violence, but it really helps to be able to blend into a crowd, i.e. the gullible people who have a conscience but weak follow-through (to actually understand any of what is going on) can be useful to those who desire to use them as meat-shields.
And to be clear I am neither advocating for the political violence, nor especially for the intentional gullibility that allows someone to be used as a meat shield by someone who actually does intend harm to innocents. I only meant that I understand that feeling at the very core, the feeling that is the targt that is being twisted and subverted by those with crafty plots, that to protect one’s home country is a good thing:-). Which is what makes the whole thing all the more sickening - b/c it is not merely greed or malice or gluttony or lust or some such that is being exploited, but rather the very GOOD desire to protect the innocents in this nation! i.e., those who are causing the spread of violence, whether they actively do the violence personally are not, they think they are actually doing GOOD (in the same way that you or I would use violence to protect a child from an animal’s attack - it actually can be a GOOD desire, at least when used solely in the appropriate context), however in reality they are causing grievous harm (by taking that good and doing it in an incorrect context).:-(
But that is the boundary up to which I feel like I understand. Beyond that, I am hella confused - especially what can be done about it, if anything at this point.:-(
I agree on all counts - including that Kbin is probably the most aggravating site I’ve ever used. I’ve never had so many problems with any social media site before.
I think we do agree on most everything, I absolutely agree with your comments about January 6th. I don’t think that random acts of vandalism and violence like that do anything to help anybody - if anything, it actually showed people the real face of American extremism and how bad things can get when we encourage violence.
To me, anyone who wants to take a good honest swing at doing something good to protect our democracy needs to get out and vote, and encourage everyone they know to do the same. Honestly, the big problem we have is that many people just think “well my vote doesn’t matter,” so a large segment of them do nothing.
They say that all that has to happen to allow evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. To me strength and “toughness” come from being intelligence and listening to each other and working against the idea that it’s OK to act like a spoiled brat if things don’t always go your way.
If you will allow me, I beg to differ: violence is the APPROPRIATE response, sometimes - rarely but not never. e.g., if you had a child who was being mauled by a dog, wouldn’t you go to their aid, and strike the dog to get it to go away? Of course you would - any sane, responsible person would.
These people are being brainwashed into thinking that by rising up, they are protecting the “true America”. Their heartfelt desire to protect things is GOOD. Their willingness to rise up and actually do something is GOOD. They are not complacent - they are literal heroes, in their own minds at least, but also called thus by those they respect, on the television, in the radio, in the “news” sources they choose to read, etc.
That is what is so twisted about the whole thing - it is not their badness or weaknesses that are being exploited (greed, lust, laziness, etc.), so much as their STRENGTHS, which are being re-directed towards an end that those who employ violence have not bothered to think through and understand. There IS a weakness involved, probably several (crowd mentality, giving up your agency to another rather than questioning everything - e.g. I Thessalonians 5:21 commands, though many preachers, especially evangelical Christianity, behind the pulpits in the Heartland of America do not teach that anymore… and instead are laying out the exact opposite message), but I do not think these people are themselves insane, so much as they are merely “normal”.
Which is not to say that the overall effect is not insanity, ofc.
And yeah I suspect the “Americans first” thing would be more the previous generation, like during WWI & II, when people had to stand together regardless of political affiliation, against an outside aggressor. Whereas today, that outside aggressor has patiently lain in wait for so long that the call (for violence) is now coming from inside our own house… even if its’ true origin derives from outside of it, e.g. Faux News dictating the talking points that Americans should follow, even if those came originally from Russia. Even if the latter country were to cease to exist literally today, the damage has already been done, and people in the USA now think how they wanted them to; but conversely even if the Republican party were to cease to exist today, those outside forces would continue to push for their desired ends… It is pressure from outside, and yet people today do not see it as that, and willingly go along with it.
Well of course you’re welcome to differ, I enjoy your points of view and I’m not the sort who gets offended because of a differing point of view; in fact, I welcome it.
You’re right, there are times violence might be necessary, and yes of course I’d intervene if a violence situation threatened any of my family members or pets. I don’t condone violence at all but I get how it sometimes can happen anyway.
Yet I can’t really condone willful violence against government officials, no matter how wrong-headed their actions may seem. I know some people believe that violence is justified when they are being disenfranchised, but I say that only brings about more misery for everyone.
But I agree with your points about outside aggressors having waited patiently for so long and now are having a field day. Again I totally am against it, waving weapons around and threatening LGBTQ people for being who they are, for example - that is never OK. I hate to see the worst of America being the example that others aspire to follow.
All I can say is, I can only do my part not to contribute to the violent attitude out there. Change is a process that requires small steps, not big acts of violence. Hopefully we can work together again as one people at being a more inclusive and non-violent nation.
(I am giving up on kbin working)
We might agree more than we are letting on. I am doing a horrible job explaining my position though:-(. For one, I think we both agree that hypothetically there are SOMETIMES cases that only violence can solve, and then the real trick is to figure out when & where those cases are, yet they are EXCEEDINGLY rare and caution is best advised until people are ABSOLUTELY certain. And politically speaking, they almost never happen, but when they do they involve great deliberation and care, e.g. the USA entering into WWI and WWII in order to stop the spread of aggressive, violent nations at the expense of our allies; or like Ukranians defending their homeland from an imminent and ongoing invasion attempt.
But none of that describes what happened on January 6. I mean, how does defecating on a desk “protect the constitution”? Or smashing random stuff, rioting, looting, or crushing a police officer literally to death? Some of the people there, during the earlier peaceful phase, truly just wanted their voices to be heard, while others just were angry and took the excuse to do violence. But if someone truly wanted to “protect the constitution” as they claimed, then I happen to think that it might be worth, you know, reading it first!? Which takes real effort - maybe literal years of study in order to fully understand the context and all parts involved.
I suppose what I was trying to say then is that these outside agitators take a very real, honest, and good desire to do something - protect the homeland from badness - but twist it into conveying that you do NOT need to do the hard stuff like “study”, and instead you can simply show up at such and such an address at such and such a time, and your presence alone will be mostly enough. Bonus points for bringing guns, whether loaded or not they make a good “tough” image. Some very few people go a step further and do the actual violence, but it really helps to be able to blend into a crowd, i.e. the gullible people who have a conscience but weak follow-through (to actually understand any of what is going on) can be useful to those who desire to use them as meat-shields.
And to be clear I am neither advocating for the political violence, nor especially for the intentional gullibility that allows someone to be used as a meat shield by someone who actually does intend harm to innocents. I only meant that I understand that feeling at the very core, the feeling that is the targt that is being twisted and subverted by those with crafty plots, that to protect one’s home country is a good thing:-). Which is what makes the whole thing all the more sickening - b/c it is not merely greed or malice or gluttony or lust or some such that is being exploited, but rather the very GOOD desire to protect the innocents in this nation! i.e., those who are causing the spread of violence, whether they actively do the violence personally are not, they think they are actually doing GOOD (in the same way that you or I would use violence to protect a child from an animal’s attack - it actually can be a GOOD desire, at least when used solely in the appropriate context), however in reality they are causing grievous harm (by taking that good and doing it in an incorrect context).:-(
But that is the boundary up to which I feel like I understand. Beyond that, I am hella confused - especially what can be done about it, if anything at this point.:-(
I agree on all counts - including that Kbin is probably the most aggravating site I’ve ever used. I’ve never had so many problems with any social media site before.
I think we do agree on most everything, I absolutely agree with your comments about January 6th. I don’t think that random acts of vandalism and violence like that do anything to help anybody - if anything, it actually showed people the real face of American extremism and how bad things can get when we encourage violence.
To me, anyone who wants to take a good honest swing at doing something good to protect our democracy needs to get out and vote, and encourage everyone they know to do the same. Honestly, the big problem we have is that many people just think “well my vote doesn’t matter,” so a large segment of them do nothing.
They say that all that has to happen to allow evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. To me strength and “toughness” come from being intelligence and listening to each other and working against the idea that it’s OK to act like a spoiled brat if things don’t always go your way.