NCTD in San Diego recently had a meeting about a proposed H2 railcar project for the Sprinter line. The H2 fuel costs are running 4-16x more expensive relative to what was originally planned. So nice to see scarce public transit dollars funding H2 research 🙄
There’s a litany of reasons why hydrogen isn’t a practical storage fuel. They start with the Hindenburg and end with the billions in subsidies that American hydrogen-power companies have collected to not build anything useful.
also most hydrogen is a byproduct of fossil fuels. very little hydrogen is made with green energy.
edit: 95% of hydrogen is produced directly from fossil fuels. Truly "green"hydrogen is less than 1%.
It’s typical to see the proposals devolve.
Fully green hydrogen!
Yeah, bit expensive to build now. What if we first do half green and the rest from fossil fuels.
So we ran the budget again. We were thinking just a quarter green.
Well, infrastructure doesn’t quite support this, so you know what? Gas with hydrogen added!
Is this a good time to tell we settled on natural gas with a homeopathic amount of green hydrogen?
Yeah it’s effectively just a fossil fuel.
Dont most people know that? I thought the promise is that you could establish a hydrogen infrastructure and it would get greener over time - similar to EV’s which get greener over time as power generation includes more renewables.
Not that I’m that naive but I thought that was the claim. Realistically it looks like corporate welfare to let fossil fuel companies keep a stranglehold on energy. One of the most satisfying parts of owning an EV is thinking about all that industry that no longer needs to exist. It’s not just the drilling and refining and shipping and military support for oppressive regimes worldwide, but also huge amounts of polluting and profiteering infrastructure to store and distribute gasoline to every street corner. It can all go
Dont most people know that?
most people do not know that in my experience.
thought the promise is that you could establish a hydrogen infrastructure and it would get greener over time - similar to EV’s which get greener over time as power generation includes more renewables.
why should we use renewables to produce hydrogen (not to mention develop an entirely new hydrogen infrastructure) when we could just use that renewable energy as it is? That’s just adding extra steps and inefficiency for very little benefit, if any.
One of the most satisfying parts of owning an EV is thinking about all that industry that no longer needs to exist.
agreed.
why should we use renewables to produce hydrogen (not to mention develop an entirely new hydrogen infrastructure) when we could just use that renewable energy as it is? That’s just adding extra steps and inefficiency for very little benefit, if any.
Because hydrogen isn’t trying to replace the source of energy, it is trying to replace the storage of it, at present batteries are not nearly good enough for the EV only transportation boom, but hydrogen works and only really needs to deal with the volatility issue
only really needs to deal with the volatility issue
H2 is the smallest molecule there is, and among the worst to contain. It’s also quite reactive. And the production of H2 for storage is not wonderfully efficient, nor is the whole lifecycle from production to consumption.
The only real reason for hydrogen is to repurpose rather than scrapping the existing gasoline supply chain. That benefits nobody but the fossil-fuel companies. And that’s why it’s being endlessly hyped, despite being a profoundly suboptimal solution.
Because hydrogen isn’t trying to replace the source of energy, it is trying to replace the storage of it
yes, but the point is renewables>battery storage is a more direct and efficient storage system than renewables>hydrogen which then has to be contained, shipped, and distributed for every refill/charge. Batteries you make once and recharge thousands of times which you can do with distribution through the grid from your local power utility (or even right at home if you have solar).
at present batteries are not nearly good enough for the EV only transportation boom, but hydrogen works and only really needs to deal with the volatility issue
it’s not just volatility that’s an issue. Even setting that aside, Hydrogen is difficult to contain because it’s such a small molecule, and it weakens/corrodes metals. These are not trivial challenges at all.
the other thing you can’t do with hydrogen is energy recovery via braking, so you’d have to build cars with a battery or some other kind of hybrid system for fuel cost efficiency.
It’s true that batteries present their own challenges but we are making much more progress in battery tech than we are with hydrogen.
Didn’t they just start shipping grid size salt batteries too?
whatever happened to @Hypx@fedia.io ?
They spammed hydrogen propaganda none stop them just went silent. Looks like they’ve taken it to their own small sub.
they dismissed their own research https://theconversation.com/why-electric-beats-hydrogen-in-the-race-to-decarbonise-freight-vehicles-in-australia-233343 as saying electric results in less emissions, but on an aggressive solution their own link shows less than half emissions.
Green H2 is only path to 100% renewables because it monetizes surplus renewable energy that has to have surpluses in order to power everything every day.
A large scale, with labour, installation of DC only solar in China costs $500-$800/kw. prior to financing costs this is 1.25 to 2c/kwh 30 year electricity production at 4 sun hours per day. Solar doesn’t need to be replaced for 60 years. Every 1% of financing (or ROI step) costs is 0.34 to 0.54c/kwh. China interest rates are under 2%, and providing that financing rate is the greatest subsidy to capex only projects such as solar, that H2 allows 100% guaranteed monetization rates if they are working. 2c-3c/kwh electricity cost.
Alkaline electrolysis are cheaper than PEM. There is great innovation in other technologies as well, but you will need to have it developed/financed in China instead of trying stupid government bribes, or waiting for oil dependent banksters to follow through on support. Alkaline is $250/kw. PEM is targeted with support at $330 next year, but $500/kw near term is certain. Norway’s NEL is also around/close to this mark. PEM is more automatable with distilled water, and voltage variations, and 30mpa pressure output, but Alkaline powered by batteries is perfectly fine, with longer lifespans of 60k+ hours, but with a minimal water additive process. This is over 40 years with 10 hours/day use.
At 55kwh/kg of H2, this is opex of $1.10 to $1.65/kg. $250/kw capex over 30000 hours (half of life) is 45c/kg. each 1% financing cost for 3000 production hours/year is 4.5c/kg. Total cost as low as $1.64/kg uncompressed at 2% financing, but $1.73 with direct solar (minimal battery size excluded) only (1500 hours/year). Financing costs determine how little electrolyzers with how big of a battery buffer to keep them running.
Natural gas can make emission free H2 (excluding fugitive methane emissions during transport) through pyrolysis. It also makes pure solid graphite which can be used from tire rubber to graphene, and has economic value to store and trade. OPEX electricity is cut in half (55c - 82c/kg), and no membranes makes the electronics far easier. Water electrolysis can still be better at low electricity costs (it also costs less than NG input). Free land in middle east/Australia/deserts with much more than 4 sun hours/day means even cheaper costs than China with import of Chinese tech. Water and H2 can exist in same pipeline, and so coastal populations can be provided with energy in return for water. Where desalination provides distilled water, PEM gets more attractive as it can operate at higher efficiency with lower voltage (extending total life hours too), and 24 hour operation from battery unless market prices for H2 are high enough to support high production. 24 hour production at 50kwh/kg makes electrolysis of water cost 10c/kg less in opex, and 5c/kg less in financing costs = $1.49/kg (but excluding the battery costs needed to support)
Retail prices at filling stations in Guangdong are already below $4/kg which is $2/gallon equivalent diesel in a fuel cell. There is massive profit opportunity for $2/kg paid to green producers with social infrastructure support (pipelines mainly but also fuel cell use). H2’s biggest advantage over electricity is its transportability and storage. $2/kg H2 can provide a home with 10c/kwh electricity in their fuel cell, and 6c/kwh in combined heat/electricity energy where the waste fraction is enough to provide the usual 40% home energy fraction needed for domestic hot water.
There’s no reason to nuke electric grid from orbit, but an H2 only economy could provide cheaper electricity to most of the world.
