My thoughts immediately go there on abortion: before birth, I never had the consciousness to experience & want life, so I’m incapable of caring about missing out before that capacity to care could even start. The “loss” is absolutely meaningless to me. Even under the golden rule, abortion seems okay: I wouldn’t care about being aborted. So why are others caring more than I would?
By the time I get there I’ll probably be begging for it.
Because I forgot what it was like
Can’t forget something that doesn’t exist.
It did but you wasn’t aware of it at the time
I have never experienced unending nothingness, only noted the nothingness after it was over
That’s a good point, though I think it’s also fair to say that you won’t experience unending nothingness after death from that perspective, either. I can see how coming to accept that the world existed before our experience began could help one confront the world will continue to exist after our experience has ended.
I’m looking forward to the nothingness, the first 14billion years was nice enough. It’s the time between everyday life and nothingness that worries me.
Just had a friend die of a heart attack while working in construction with his friends. Didn’t make it to the hospital.
That’s how I want to go. Just times up one day.
So sorry for your loss. You’re right - your friend is “fine” now. It’s the people we leave behind that can have a hard time with it.
Thanks
Idk, sounds kinda scary. Idk what it was like before, because I lacked consciousness to experience it. And the idea that it all ends, back to nothingness forever. We live a few years. Pretty much nothing, if we consider the forever before, and the forever after our existence.
It’s something I recall fearing as a kid, due to the scary unknown. Glad to have enjoyed a decade of bliss. Too bad the fear has come back to haunt me. It’s not constant, though. Sometimes it comes, outta nowhere. Real strong. Not fun. But I don’t live day to day in fear.
The thing is, once youre dead, there won’t be consciousness, you will not have any perception of a void, you won’t know anything because you will not be.
Marc Maron put it into good perspective. He was hiking in the hills and passed out. He noted that he could very well have been dead, and that would have been that. He wasnt scared because he wasnt conscious.
You can’t be afraid when you dont exist and you will not be aware of anything.
I don’t believe in God nor am I religious, but consciousness just feels so fucking weird man. Everything in the world can be explained through science and physics, cause and effect, hell even our brains and actions are just a chain of atoms interacting. But consciousness just feels so out of place. Why am I? Why am I even aware of my own existence? Why has a set of atoms resulted in my non-material consciousness? It feels so out of place. Why isn’t it just a bunch of atoms bumping into eachother, why am I capable of feeling and thinking?
I think about this more than anything in those quiet “run the brain’s existential dread garbage collection routine” moments.
Self aware consciousness is just so wild. Like you say, how does it even exist? But it’s also so common on our little planet here (even if we only count the humans) that it is as commonplace as it is spectacular.
It feels like this magical “extra” thing, but at the same time the evidence kinda suggests it’s just something that naturally happens once you get complex life.
You might find some answers in Julian Jaynes The origin of consciousness in the breakdown of the bicameral mind.
Short version: consciousness is kind of new. We aren’t really good at it.
Also, Why Buddhism is True by Robert Wright is very good. Less about Buddhism more about how we think and why it works.
I think it’s important to point out that the bicameral mind is one theory, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. One of its major criticisms is that it suggests consciousness only arose in humans around the time we started writing about it, and that it didn’t exist in humans before then. It’s also entirely possible that humans were conscious way before that, but when we started writing about it was just when we developed the cultural concept of what consciousness is.
The theory also seems to imply there is something special about human metacognitive processes compared to other animals, which would therefore imply that animals are not conscious. That seems weirdly reductive when various non-human animals show some evidence of self-awareness (mirror spot test, Alex the grey parrot).
It’s a nice theory which ties lots of things together, but it’s no more true than any other theory of consciousness at the moment.
Correct. In the case of the question, I believe there is value to be gained, even if there are flaws in the argument.
I was really curious to check out that first book after your short version.
But damn, the subject matter of that second book might draw my attention first. The Buddhist approach & techniques made so much sense to me in a completely pragmatic way.
I might have to order myself physical copies of both of these to read outside by my koi pond on cool fall days. The fact that the whole scene will be so on the nose to the point of being cliched will just amuse me further, lol.
Thanks for the recommendations!
Edit: oh jesus christ there’s a koi on the cover of Why Buddhism is True, haha. Looks like I should invest in the hardcover.
I got a lot out of Wright’s book and I continue to revisit it.
It is a slow read that demands your attention, but it is very enlightening.
I will keep that in mind. I look forward to taking my time with it. Thank you again!
I ordered the other book too, but Wright’s book here has definitely jumped to the front of the line.
The weirdest thing to me is that it’s literally impossible to measure and detect whether something has consciousness. Every other thing in our universe can be measured theoretically, even if not by our current tools, but there is no way to confirm that someone else is experiencing what I am experiencing currently. It’s just so weird.
You are the construct of a million cells, an evolutionary “trick” that allows all the pieces to act as one. Your task is to percieve your environment and survive in it.
Sure, I get the biology and technical aspect of it and I can understand that something could evolve whose atoms would move in such a way that it results in an object that is capable of responding dynamically to its roundings, plan and think. But for that collection of atoms to then result in this experience, I feel is extraordinarily exceptional.
The thing is, once youre dead, there won’t be consciousness, you will not have any perception of a void, you won’t know anything because you will not be
Do we really know this though?
What if upon death we exit the simulation?
Sometimes I think non-sim me decided to play life on hard mode. I’d kind of like to kick his ass for that. But then I realize he is me.
Do we really know our dentists aren’t CIA agents installing radios but calling them fillings?!
What happens after death is just about the least concerning thing I can imagine. (yay rejoice!) Anywhere from seconds to decades of stuff to worry about before that! :) (oh no anxiety again sorry!)
:)
You can’t know until then, so what is the value in worrying?
That’s precisely the scary part. A nothingness, for all of eternity. It ends, never to continue. I do not know what it is like. Just… not seeing. Not hearing. None of the senses, and no thoughts either. No consciousness.
I wouldn’t be scared after dead, cuz I’dn’t have the consciousness for that. However, being alive, I can. I can fear the eternal nothingness of inexistence
I think this may or may not have some connection to a post from that monkey in the brain guy who also has a TED Talk (Tim Something?). I recall seeing a post of his about life or something. Talked about how short our lives are in the grand scheme of things. Had even an image with days or weeks or months of life, like a progress bar
On the other hand, reading that people actually close to death don’t worry as much as people imagining being close to death, iirc, may have had a positive impact in my fear. Though I recalln’t well
I do not know what it is like. Just… not seeing. Not hearing. None of the senses, and no thoughts either. No consciousness.
And you never will. You’ll experience it exactly as much as you already have (none). So there’s nothing to fear.
The way you are now is the only way you will ever be.
Dear brother/sister rest your mind. You cannot control what will happen and worry/fear will only agitate you.
I don’t like the idea of life being over, but it is inevitable. Seek acceptance and peace with this so you do not waste your precious hours with unnecessary discomfort. There is so much more to enjoy while we are still here!
Loss of life is followed by mourning - except when it is our own. Some spend decades mourning the end of their lives because they are scared of facing it down. You’ve done the big scary part already. Now spend the time taking yourself through all of your fears. Once you come to acceptance it doesn’t change what will be, but it will trouble you a lot less.
Well, there technically may not be an eternity. Universe is 14 billion years old now…in 32 trillion years or so the last black holes and last particles will cease to exist. Time will no longer have any meaning, and the nothingness will be all there is.
What a shit hand we were dealt.
Well, maybe not eternity, but that sure is a whołe lot of time for someone who’ll be around for probably less than 100 years (not sure why 100 is the number I think of when I think of an age limit to life. Is this a common occurrance, folks? Or just me? I mean, I do know some people go past it, but still…)
Because there is no coming back.
We only get one ride in this rollercoaster and half of us want to make the ride living hell for the rest of us.
Half? Try an alarmingly small number and they are damn good at it.
Cannot step in the same river twice. Nor with the same feet.
Why are you so sure about this? Believing there is no reincarnation is just a religious dogma of Christianity or rather all abrahamitic religions and therefore deeply engraved in our culture so we don’t even consider other possibilities. Similar to how in buddhist and hinduistic cultures reincarnation is the default way of imagining life before birth and after death.
Believing there is no reincarnation is just a religious dogma of Christianity
I don’t know that that’s true.
We as a society don’t know what happens when we die, conscious-wise. To state “we definitely do come back” or “we definitely don’t” would be incorrect, just like saying “there’s definitely aliens” vs “there definitely are not”.
However, we can use evidence we’ve gathered over thousands of years of existence and make assumptions. Unless I’m mistaken, there’s little evidence that has been accepted by the scientific community (Western or Eastern) to support reincarnation, so to say that “we don’t come back” is a Christian dogma is a little unfair.
To be clear I don’t have a strong opinion on reincarnation. I’ve heard compelling stories that are hard to explain otherwise, but I feel like we’d have been able to gather at least some concrete data on it over the span of our existence.
Brother, you and I are the universe recycled / reincarnated over and over again living life one day at a time like a real metaverse. This consciousness is a dream, although we can’t tell because we’re inside the dream. Unlike the dreams in our sleep, biting this finger hurts for real, but real is a thing you perceive just like how we perceive money to be real in an engaging game of Monopoly.
This is the way. Life can only be recognized as such in the context where an absence of life is also present, but ultimately both (life and no-life) are just interpretations of what we call existence.
That’s exactly my point. What’s the concrete data against reincarnation would someone from a buddhist culture ask (probably even when they aren’t religious). I am just saying what we accept as default and for what we demand evidence depends on the cultural background.
I might have formulated it exxagerated. But believing in “YOLO” is as evidence based as believing in reincarnation.
Similar as atheism is a belief as well: believing that there is no god. How do they know? It seems my point of view is more agnostic than most here.
Words like “atheism” or “agnostic” make sense as shorthands for everyday conversations or labelling, but if you want to be rigorous about it, it makes more sense to use 4 categories:
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Gnostic theist: I know there’s a God, I’ve met Him, I feel it, I have faith, etc.
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Agnostic theist: I don’t know if there’s a god or not, but I prefer to believe there’s one
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Agnostic atheist: if we don’t know if there’s a god or not, there’s no reason to believe there’s one. Do you assume there’s an invisible giant teapot orbiting Earth because there’s no proof to the contrary?
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Gnostic atheist: a god can’t possibly exist, the concept of a god is illogical, etc.
I’m agnostic atheist, but maybe there could a firm reasoning for the gnostic atheist position. I don’t know, I would have to read and think about it more.
Interesting categories, but I don’t find myself in any of them: We don’t know if there is a god therefore I neither believe in its existence nor in its non-existence because it doesn’t matter anyway. If god(s) exist they either don’t affect human lives or they do it without letting us know how and why. In both cases there is no reasons to change anything in my life.
I think this view is called apathetic or pragmatic agnosticism.
I don’t know, that seems very similar to agnostic atheism to me. Is there any situation where you would act differently if you’d consider yourself agnostic atheist instead of apathetic agnostic?
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So where do the „extra“ humans come from in these religions? What I mean is the increasing number of people being alive at the same time.
There’s a long line to get in.
I don’t know but there are probably explanations. One that I could imagine is that there really is only one consciousness or soul that splits itself up in as many parts as it wants to experience the universe and itself.
You could ask questions like that about the belief that there is no reincarnation or soul as well. Where does consciousness come from? What is it? How can electrochemical reactions be the equivalent of tasting a pizza?
I don’t believe in a soul. That is definitely not religious dogma.
The idea that reincarnation is the default and one would have to be indoctrinated against it is… I would say, a very interesting position to take, if I’m being polite.
I am rather saying it is nothing we can prove or disprove and both views ar equally legit. It just seems to us one view is more legit because of our cultural background.
An arrogant position even.
Sounds rather arrogant to me to think there is a default position for something like that.
Believing there is no reincarnation is just a religious dogma of Christianity
No, it is pretty much the default position until you can prove that it happens.
Same as with God? I don’t think so. Don’t you think there are things that cannot be proven or disproven? My point is the default position depends on the cultural background.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Especially if declining to look.
Sure? Christianity? Nah, atheism. I just don’t walk around believing stuff just because other people believe it. And if reincarnation is real I don’t see it as coming back, you’re a different person after all.
About 22 years ago or so, after not taking psilocybe mushrooms for a couple years, fasting for 24 hours, I took an uncounted tens of grams of dried, fine-powdered, strong psilocybe semilanceata, hot, in just lemon juice, and chugged that pint of thick mushroom super-lemony brew down as fast as i could. It started coming on FAST and STRONG. Ran the 3 strides to the bathroom sink with need to purge, which didn’t last long nor purge much of it… clinging to the sink as I slumped down, with the trip immensity roaring at the doors bursting in at all the seams, I tried to steady myself, I meditatively focused on a drop of water, empathising with it likewise clinging to the underside of the sink. I empathised my way instantly to know where every molecule, and every atom, of the water in there, had ever been, and it was a short jump from there to realise I could do that with everything. My experience is that every atom, every subatomic particle, have omnidirectional infinite sense of the entire cosmos… and this was only in the beginning seconds of the hours long trip, the ability to see behind things, to know from every perspective, everybody, all time, all times, all dimensions, all realms, all places, all interacting potentials… I cant speak to it really, only to say I remember I did experience it. Cannot take it all back with you.
First exchange with other people after I came out of the toilet, friends had come around, one asked “how was it?”, and with it all still being fresh, the immensity of having experienced omniscience, sought to offer what I thought was the most beautiful thing of it all… I said, with all glowing reverie “I know death”. The look of horror on the poor dear’s face though. Ho ho ho.
But yeah, get that… we mere mortals, many, all around, can experience omniscience.
And many are, and ever have. Say hi.
If you know you know
Because, now that i aquired conciusness, i dont want to lose it. i dont want to re experience nothingness. ffs id rather suffer for eternity than not live at all.
if religion wasnt so unbelievable id probably be religious. but alas i just have to hope that i am wrong in my understanding that there is no afterlife
Without a brain and no small amount of power (20% of your calorie count at rest on average, less when jogging, more when doing the calculus) the age of the universe goes by instantly. You don’t track time.
You also don’t track heat or pain, or memories good or bad. You don’t contemplate your trials and tribulations. You could be in the core of the sun at over a million degrees Celsius and not feel a thing or care how you got there.
The universe has been around for thirteen billion years, and will be around for even longer, and we only get this moment. And then it’s gone.
You didn’t acquire consciousness, you acquired a human life.
Because now I know what I’d be missing.
Times like that, we experience it in one direction only
apparently I literally tried to strangle myself on my umbilical cord in the womb but my take on that was that I knew what was coming.
Just like The Butterfly Effect ending we watched in class!
yeah my husband brought this up a few days ago actually and was talking about the movie and I was like do you remember me mentioning that I literally actually did that? 4 times around apparently!
Damn, well done.
if my mother hadn’t forced me out early to intentionally lower my birth weight (I’m the last child and size tends to increase with subsequent births, my next oldest sibling complicated delivery by size alone) I might’ve succeeded too.
Bought the ticket. Take the ride. Came here with purpose, despite the trepidation.
The After is not what we fear. It is the pain of the transition
Having grown up with the concept of an eternal hell hammered into my head since day 1, I spent many years fearing the after much more than the transition.
Ah well, Religion does that for you.
I’m not afraid, I’m annoyed. I’ll never get to finish my unfinished books. >:(
Or my Steam library.
Afraid? Hardly. More like
Nothingless void is as believable as afterlife. From scientific point of view neither make sense, it’s like we’re giving ourseleves some metaphysical distinctiveness from the rest of universe but are merely physical bodies inside of it according to our scientific knowledge. And according to that we precisely know what’s after death: we rot in grave, and that’s it. But that answer is not satisfying for us, because what we call our consciousness will stop existing at some point, and we try to find logical state of us, when there is no longer us. I don’t really think it’s possible to describe how’s that like at all.
Nothingness void is just another phrase for "irreversible loss of consciousness. Which is orders of magnitudes more believable than afterlife.
But why call it void if there’s no void at all? Or nothingness. There’s only void and nothingness when universe ends (according to facts about our universe). Yet people still think about it as a state of our consciousness, when there is no really any ‘state’ after we die. It’s like
NULLvsUNDEFINEDor uninitialized variable in programming, or at least I see this that way.The universe ending is not actually fact. It’s just a theory.
The first part of your comment is contradicting the last part of it.
How exactly? I don’t see it.
