This belief that Israel is a US controlled proxy has always vexed me.
So-- honest question here-- From inside the US it appears that our entire political apparatus is controlled by a relatively small sprinkling of zionists doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US-- going all the way back to the Nakba. But theres always people (like yourself) on Lemmy and Reddit claiming Israel is a US creature under US control for US gain.
As an American my free speech ends and I get prosecuted if I say anything anti semitic. I CAN say racist things about anyone else, all I want as long as I dont start a riot.
Can you tell me why you are so certain zionism is controlled by the US (your understanding), not the US by rich zionists (my understanding)?
edit: Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.
The US and Israel have a partnership.
While the zionist representation is very visible in US politics and creates the belief that they contol it it is not so.
Can you honestly believe that if you objectively compare the two?
A tiny country with a small population and a small army (despite again being disproportionally and relatively big) vs a huge country with the largest military in the world that was already a world power before the other even existed.
" doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US"
Can you give an example?
If you’re thinking now that the bad thing is israel may drag the US into war with Iran you’re mistaken.
That may happen but it’s bcs it is the US intention to have war on Iran.
They have provoked them many times all on their own without using the israel proxy.
Hijacking ships, small attacks and unilaterally breaking the nuclear deal, etc. to increase tension.
Anyway here’s a good article I recently read.
Whatever is happening now has long been predicted.
“Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.”
I sometimes sleep, and never run away from a discussion if it’s civil or useful.
Which is rare here since .world is infested with reactionary clowns throwing insults and platitutes when they lose an argument.
examples of whats good for Israel being bad for the US:
Our aligning with Israel during the Yom Kipur war (6 day war) caused Oil prices to quadruple, which caused a decade of turmoil in the US, and almost incalculable damage to our currency. And it never really recovered to a natural pattern. The US runs on oil.
https://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil-price-history-chart
See that massive bump up in 1973? I dont suppose you are old enough to remember interest rates in the 80s are you? it peaked at 21.5%. Thats catastrophic damage to the average US persons purchasing power. Wages didnt keep up with costs-- not even close. The Israeli’s colonial war cost the US our middle class and created a massive underclass. We all paid for their war, that they claim was preemptive and unavoidable, and not their fault (just like their attack on Iran today).
And what was our reward for that? Did we gain any political leverage at all in that region? Bases? soft power? No. No we didnt. all we got was some of the blame for the Nakba, and some of the blame for the ridiculous levels persecution and murder of the Palestinian people. It was pure cost.
1990-1991 Desert storm
Israel badly wanted Sadam Hussein removed. Iraq said they invaded Kuwait because Kuwait was slant drilling into their oil fields, which is true and was known at the time to be true. So we invaded and rescued a bunch of literal thieves-- and coincidentally destroyed a potent adversary of Israel. What did we gain? anything? Two air bases, and thats about it, at great cost. The government or Iraq is barely more friendly to us that they were before. I suppose we got CENTCOM established in Kuwait. So thas not nothing, but its darn close to nothing. Israel got a major enemy removed for them. They didnt join in desert storm-- and did not allow overflight of their territory during it. They are not, and never have been a real military ally. They court Russia as much as they do the US. Same as India.
9/11/2001. Bin Laden says he attacked the world trade centers in new york to bring US public eyes to the plight of the Palestinian people that their government was facilitating, but that Americans had no idea about. And what did our people do? Our government idiotically claimed “they hated us for our freedoms”, and made a big show about not blaming all muslims, just some. What was America’s gain there? And when the attack happened, Israelis in New York and Israel were caught on tape literally cheering about it and filming it.
Bin Ladens interview with PBS:
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/miller.html
“The American imposes himself on everyone. Americans accuse our children in Palestine of being terrorists–those children, who have no weapons and have not even reached maturity. At the same time, Americans defend a country, the state of the Jews, that has a policy to destroy the future of these children.”
Obviously no one condones or support what Bin Laden did, but lets be clear eyed in our foreign policy: was he incorrect in any way in his statement? I dont see how we can honestly say he was not being earnest – to his point of view anyway. 9/11 and its outcomes would seem to be a massive, massive, massive cost to the United states in terms of hard power and soft, and added tremendously to our national debt burden. We have the TSA exactly because of Israel’s murderous colonial adventurism. What of we’d simply show the muslim world the diplomatic respect of equals from the start? And he was right, zionism IS a policy of displacing the locals from their land however possible. Thats all it is. Its racist theft and murder. Its not self defense or justice, and it never has been.
And that brings us to today. We’re literally sponsoring a genocide of innocents, for Israel’s benefit. Its one of the most illegal and immoral things a country can possibly do.
The world HATES the US because of our stand with Israel. They now see us as almost as bad as Israel. Stupid. Easily manipulated. A global problem. This is as we have also been the main contributor to food aid and the stability of trade across the planet. Thats a cost. And what have we gotten out of it? Our funding of free weapons for shenangans and murder, and our vetoing every resolution that is about peace and justice in the region for Israeli gain costs us dearly. It makes every American traveler unsafe and unwelcome, and makes people not want to trade with us or listen to our opinions. It is destroying the concepts of democracy and the rules based order, and the concept os the western world itself. The world is ditching the dollar. I hope its all worth it for Israel to finish their genocide of innocents, who today have nothing. They are doing it for beachfront condos. They will not be any more secure after this.
And what does the US population gain for our support? Its not for any philosophical or moral reason, obviously. Israelis literally spit on christians they see in the street-- is that what friends and long term allies do? Does it indicate a “partnership”? What exactly does Israel provide to the US beyond campaign bribes through AIPAC? Intel on their enemies?
This belief that Israel is a US controlled proxy has always vexed me.
So-- honest question here-- From inside the US it appears that our entire political apparatus is controlled by a relatively small sprinkling of zionists doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US-- going all the way back to the Nakba. But theres always people (like yourself) on Lemmy and Reddit claiming Israel is a US creature under US control for US gain.
As an American my free speech ends and I get prosecuted if I say anything anti semitic. I CAN say racist things about anyone else, all I want as long as I dont start a riot.
Can you tell me why you are so certain zionism is controlled by the US (your understanding), not the US by rich zionists (my understanding)?
edit: Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.
The US and Israel have a partnership.
While the zionist representation is very visible in US politics and creates the belief that they contol it it is not so.
Can you honestly believe that if you objectively compare the two?
A tiny country with a small population and a small army (despite again being disproportionally and relatively big) vs a huge country with the largest military in the world that was already a world power before the other even existed.
" doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US"
Can you give an example?
If you’re thinking now that the bad thing is israel may drag the US into war with Iran you’re mistaken.
That may happen but it’s bcs it is the US intention to have war on Iran.
They have provoked them many times all on their own without using the israel proxy.
Hijacking ships, small attacks and unilaterally breaking the nuclear deal, etc. to increase tension.
Anyway here’s a good article I recently read.
Whatever is happening now has long been predicted.
“Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.”
I sometimes sleep, and never run away from a discussion if it’s civil or useful.
Which is rare here since .world is infested with reactionary clowns throwing insults and platitutes when they lose an argument.
Let me know what you think.
examples of whats good for Israel being bad for the US:
Our aligning with Israel during the Yom Kipur war (6 day war) caused Oil prices to quadruple, which caused a decade of turmoil in the US, and almost incalculable damage to our currency. And it never really recovered to a natural pattern. The US runs on oil.
https://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil-price-history-chart See that massive bump up in 1973? I dont suppose you are old enough to remember interest rates in the 80s are you? it peaked at 21.5%. Thats catastrophic damage to the average US persons purchasing power. Wages didnt keep up with costs-- not even close. The Israeli’s colonial war cost the US our middle class and created a massive underclass. We all paid for their war, that they claim was preemptive and unavoidable, and not their fault (just like their attack on Iran today).
And what was our reward for that? Did we gain any political leverage at all in that region? Bases? soft power? No. No we didnt. all we got was some of the blame for the Nakba, and some of the blame for the ridiculous levels persecution and murder of the Palestinian people. It was pure cost.
1990-1991 Desert storm Israel badly wanted Sadam Hussein removed. Iraq said they invaded Kuwait because Kuwait was slant drilling into their oil fields, which is true and was known at the time to be true. So we invaded and rescued a bunch of literal thieves-- and coincidentally destroyed a potent adversary of Israel. What did we gain? anything? Two air bases, and thats about it, at great cost. The government or Iraq is barely more friendly to us that they were before. I suppose we got CENTCOM established in Kuwait. So thas not nothing, but its darn close to nothing. Israel got a major enemy removed for them. They didnt join in desert storm-- and did not allow overflight of their territory during it. They are not, and never have been a real military ally. They court Russia as much as they do the US. Same as India.
9/11/2001. Bin Laden says he attacked the world trade centers in new york to bring US public eyes to the plight of the Palestinian people that their government was facilitating, but that Americans had no idea about. And what did our people do? Our government idiotically claimed “they hated us for our freedoms”, and made a big show about not blaming all muslims, just some. What was America’s gain there? And when the attack happened, Israelis in New York and Israel were caught on tape literally cheering about it and filming it.
Bin Ladens interview with PBS: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/who/miller.html “The American imposes himself on everyone. Americans accuse our children in Palestine of being terrorists–those children, who have no weapons and have not even reached maturity. At the same time, Americans defend a country, the state of the Jews, that has a policy to destroy the future of these children.”
Obviously no one condones or support what Bin Laden did, but lets be clear eyed in our foreign policy: was he incorrect in any way in his statement? I dont see how we can honestly say he was not being earnest – to his point of view anyway. 9/11 and its outcomes would seem to be a massive, massive, massive cost to the United states in terms of hard power and soft, and added tremendously to our national debt burden. We have the TSA exactly because of Israel’s murderous colonial adventurism. What of we’d simply show the muslim world the diplomatic respect of equals from the start? And he was right, zionism IS a policy of displacing the locals from their land however possible. Thats all it is. Its racist theft and murder. Its not self defense or justice, and it never has been.
And that brings us to today. We’re literally sponsoring a genocide of innocents, for Israel’s benefit. Its one of the most illegal and immoral things a country can possibly do.
The world HATES the US because of our stand with Israel. They now see us as almost as bad as Israel. Stupid. Easily manipulated. A global problem. This is as we have also been the main contributor to food aid and the stability of trade across the planet. Thats a cost. And what have we gotten out of it? Our funding of free weapons for shenangans and murder, and our vetoing every resolution that is about peace and justice in the region for Israeli gain costs us dearly. It makes every American traveler unsafe and unwelcome, and makes people not want to trade with us or listen to our opinions. It is destroying the concepts of democracy and the rules based order, and the concept os the western world itself. The world is ditching the dollar. I hope its all worth it for Israel to finish their genocide of innocents, who today have nothing. They are doing it for beachfront condos. They will not be any more secure after this.
And what does the US population gain for our support? Its not for any philosophical or moral reason, obviously. Israelis literally spit on christians they see in the street-- is that what friends and long term allies do? Does it indicate a “partnership”? What exactly does Israel provide to the US beyond campaign bribes through AIPAC? Intel on their enemies?