“Violence erupted on 2 May, when a ‘United Ukraine’ rally was attacked by pro-Russian separatists.” Source
You can feel one way or another about street violence and I’m sure we can argue about whether that was what initiated the battle, but are you seriously claiming that those 43 dead were a result of “death squads”?
And as government crumbled and the nazi forces spread the russians in Ukraine had to cobble together their own defense forces. This was a time when the maidan “self-defense” force was still rather hooligan and street-fighter like. With the collapse of the government the police force evaporates and now you have a civil war.
Sounds closer to the truth of what happened, although obviously I disagree with elements of your characterization. Sounds like the goalposts have moved now, from “death squads” and pogroms into an ethnic ongoing civil war. The ethnic violence, from both sides, I’ll 100% agree was happening yes. If you want to talk about whose “fault” that was, and abandon the claim of organized death squads, we can move to that instead, and I’ll be happy to talk about it.
It’s not as clear cut as an organized, pre-meditated attack on an unarmed civilian population like in Gaza
I thought that’s exactly what it was, though? Ukrainian death squads preying on helpless Russians and so they had to “fight back” to defend themselves?
How many Russians died during the initial pogroms that they were defending themselves against when they armed themselves and started attacking Ukrainian demonstrations?
I dont understand why you’re so fixated on some statistic that doesn’t fit the situation at all.
I’ve already explained why, but I will again: I don’t believe these death squads or pogroms existed. Definitely, I believe there was ethnic violence in eastern Ukraine, on both sides, but I believe that this idea that the Ukrainian government was systematically exterminating Russians is, to me, pure propaganda fantasy. Maybe I am wrong in that, although at this point I don’t think so. Asking about objective and specific details of what you’re saying happened is a way to start to pin it down. Then if your numbers and dates contradict some other facts that are provable, it’s a pretty clear indication that it didn’t happen. It’s a way to sort fact from propaganda.
I’m not trying to ask for the number because I’m “fixated” on it, or because I’m planning to say it’s high or low or whatever. I’m asking as a way of seeing what you’re actually claiming happened. You’ve already moved a certain distance, from “death squads” to talking about street violence which at least one reliable source says the proximate cause of was Russian gunfire, so it’s already had some of its intended effect.
Five members of the ‘Donbas’ battalion have been accused
of a number of crimes against civilians including abduction,
armed robbery, extortion, banditry, hooliganism, and illegal
possession of weapons. Four members of parliament including a
former commander of the ‘Donbas’ battalion attended one of
their preliminary hearings on 30 August. They requested the
court to release the defendants on their personal guarantees. The
members of parliament overtly exerted pressure on the judges,
threatening to initiate corruption proceedings. They also verbally
insulted the victims, accusing them of separatism. Ultimately,
the defendants were released on the personal guarantees of the
parliamentarians.
As previously documented, sexual violence is most often used as a method of torture
for conflict-related detainees. For example, a man detained in the Kharkiv SBU building in May
2015 was tortured for hours in an attempt to extract a confession. He broke down when a person
claiming to be a doctor entered the room with a set of surgical tools and started pulling down his
pants while threatening to cut off his testicles. SBU officers then took him to the investigator’s
office where he was compelled to sign several self-incriminating statements.61 In another case, a
woman arrested in April 2015 by Kharkiv SBU was subjected to various acts of torture, including
threats that the SBU officers would hand her daughter over to the Right Sector or Aidar battalion,
so she could “watch how they play with her”.
This is what I mean by “terrorism of nazi death squads”. Everything else is stuff you made up about what I said. I’m ending it here you arent doing your due diligence but expect me to look up everything.
Yes the attack on the trade unions building was by nazi death squads. Look at the UN report on it, or just read the article I linked you.
It is a key feature of propagandists that they must not engage in a two-way dialogue. Everything must be them presenting their narrative. Inconvenient questions are met with hostility or long lectures, or demands that you consume large amounts of their media as a precondition of continuing the conversation.
Have a good one.
Edit: Actually, one amendment, can you link me to the UN report on the fire? That, I’d be interested to read.
“Violence erupted on 2 May, when a ‘United Ukraine’ rally was attacked by pro-Russian separatists.” Source
You can feel one way or another about street violence and I’m sure we can argue about whether that was what initiated the battle, but are you seriously claiming that those 43 dead were a result of “death squads”?
Sounds closer to the truth of what happened, although obviously I disagree with elements of your characterization. Sounds like the goalposts have moved now, from “death squads” and pogroms into an ethnic ongoing civil war. The ethnic violence, from both sides, I’ll 100% agree was happening yes. If you want to talk about whose “fault” that was, and abandon the claim of organized death squads, we can move to that instead, and I’ll be happy to talk about it.
I thought that’s exactly what it was, though? Ukrainian death squads preying on helpless Russians and so they had to “fight back” to defend themselves?
How many Russians died during the initial pogroms that they were defending themselves against when they armed themselves and started attacking Ukrainian demonstrations?
I’ve already explained why, but I will again: I don’t believe these death squads or pogroms existed. Definitely, I believe there was ethnic violence in eastern Ukraine, on both sides, but I believe that this idea that the Ukrainian government was systematically exterminating Russians is, to me, pure propaganda fantasy. Maybe I am wrong in that, although at this point I don’t think so. Asking about objective and specific details of what you’re saying happened is a way to start to pin it down. Then if your numbers and dates contradict some other facts that are provable, it’s a pretty clear indication that it didn’t happen. It’s a way to sort fact from propaganda.
I’m not trying to ask for the number because I’m “fixated” on it, or because I’m planning to say it’s high or low or whatever. I’m asking as a way of seeing what you’re actually claiming happened. You’ve already moved a certain distance, from “death squads” to talking about street violence which at least one reliable source says the proximate cause of was Russian gunfire, so it’s already had some of its intended effect.
This is what I mean by “terrorism of nazi death squads”. Everything else is stuff you made up about what I said. I’m ending it here you arent doing your due diligence but expect me to look up everything.
Yes the attack on the trade unions building was by nazi death squads. Look at the UN report on it, or just read the article I linked you.
It is a key feature of propagandists that they must not engage in a two-way dialogue. Everything must be them presenting their narrative. Inconvenient questions are met with hostility or long lectures, or demands that you consume large amounts of their media as a precondition of continuing the conversation.
Have a good one.
Edit: Actually, one amendment, can you link me to the UN report on the fire? That, I’d be interested to read.