- cross-posted to:
- lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
A tweet states that National Guard or Active Duty military ordered to violate constitutional rights can call the GI Rights Hotline for support, with the number 1-877-447-4487 provided.
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Remember that institutions are not a requirement for conscience.
You’re not that special-if you’re feeling it, a lot if other people probably are too
You’re going to choose whether you live in a world where men with guns shoot civilians, or shoot (higher) officers who order them to shoot civilians. Sorry you gotta make that choice.
What lead you here? Who are you? Who do you want to be? How can you best be loyal to that?
When this is all over, you’re going to have to live with what you’ve done. Or not. Im telling you; the best therapists are or know people in those crowds.
Whose side are you on?
No. They should not shoot the officer that gives the order, that is a prison sentence no matter what.
The whole “disobey unethical orders” thing is for officers on the field receiving orders from command that they perceive as a warcrime (or against the constitution). They simply say “no, we aren’t doing that”.
If someone shoots an officer ordering war crimes that is justice, and probably why they don’t allow military members to be tired by public courts. They would almost certainly be acquitted.
Honestly I like how the constitution says everyone without exception is allowed a jury trial, but we just pretend that it’s okay for the military to not follow that. Like sure now they are volunteers, but conscription has a long history. It’s kinda fucked up when you think about it, and definently unconstitutional
The military is told when they enlist that they are signing away their rights as a citizen until the term of enlistment, or their commission, is fulfilled. Personally I appreciated being bound by a much smaller, but somewhat more restrictive, set of rules that they gave each of us a copy of to read and learn. Turns out it’s much easier to just do what you want to do, if you know how to do it within the rules.
I understand that’s what we say, but it’s not in the constitution and courts have ruled that you cannot sign away your rights as they are inalienable. Yet, it’s allowed for the military to do so
Military kinda has to operate under its own jurisdiction. They have to be able to tell the president, “no.” The founders didn’t think we would have a standing military, so they didn’t put provisions in the Constitution itself, but once it became clear that we were going to have to have a standing army and navy at all times, we changed the laws.
Also it can be argued that a court martial is better than a jury trial. Because the jury is made of JAG, so they actually know what the UCMJ says, and what precedents apply.
I get what you’re saying, but historically the military does not tell the president “no” (at least to our knowledge) and has constantly committed war crimes with little to no repercussions
No. You are 100% WRONG. Shooting an officer ordering a war crime is not justice … it is actually criminal behavior. It is not how it is done.
Source: The UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice)
Because the UCMJ has done such a great job of preventing war crimes and punishing war criminals…
Just because something is illegal doesn’t make it unjust and vice versa.
After all according to the German military the holocaust was legal. If soldiers then murdered their officers they would have been seen by the world as heros.
Legality should not be the basis of your morality
Dudes are saying that soldiers should shoot their officers if they give a “bad” order … that’s not how things work. Anyone that thinks it is has watched way too many movies.
Nobody said that, I certainly didn’t.
What I said was if your CO orders you to kill civilians it is absolutely moral to ignore that order and if necessary go beyond the law to prevent it even if that includes killing your CO.
There is a huge difference between a “bad” order and being complicit in war crimes and killing unarmed civilians in your own country.
Incorrect. At least read the conversation you are trying to enter. There are several references stating this should be done. One post even describes where the term “fragging” comes from. The post I responded to stated a soldier could either live with the guilt of what he does or turn on the officer that gave the order.
You are also wrong that you can disobey an order to shoot civilians. It is not always morally acceptable. That will get someone a court martial. A soldier on guard duty on a military base sees several guys jumping a fence and entering an ammo depot. “Halt! Are you guys military? Because I’m not allowed to shoot civilians breaking onto a secured facility” … said no soldier ever in the history of soldiering.
Legality is a copium for libs
but that’s illegal!
If this pops off, there are no laws. It’s just men with guns. Your lib shit is going to get people killed. Lots of people. Your lib shit is how you start a civil war. Stop. Delete this comment. Im trying to reduce harm here, you’re clearly into accellerationism.
the officers should
Yeah. Yeah they should. And if they don’t, their soldiers should protest, by issuing a report in .768.
Political power, when there is no mutual respect or goal, comes out the barrel of a gun.
Edit: they’ve already violated both the Geneva conventions, as is standard, and the constitution of the united states. Every point in the chain of command is a chance to stop an atrocity. The soldier holding the gun is the absolute last failsafe, and if things get to that point, everything else has failed. Civil society has, at least locally, failed and no longer exists.
Calm your fucking tities! If you just refuse illegal orders, they won’t usually do shit against you, just court martial you. Or attempt to. They can’t execute everyone
If the officers learn that issuing these orders is unwise, the entire artifics of power will balk, and they may stop trying to massacre civilians this way for a few years.
What if you refuse, but the guy next to you already shot a protester?
This administration does not give a shit what the courts or constitution have to say. Do you not remember what these people are protesting? Can you repeat for me, so i know you know?
Why do you think an institution that orders people to shoot unarmed civilians still deserves your faith and respect? That’s a genuinely vile level of boot licking.
Edit: so, looks like the constitution of the united states is being violated now. Counting on due process to punish failsafes for failing at this point seems like you just want it to happen.
Fragging shit officers is a time honored tradition of the enlisted. I say that as an officer. The legality of it really doesn’t matter at the time.
Careful, talking about Fragging during Vietnam was what started my booting off Reddit, lmao, I’m kidding at least about being careful.
Can’t these babykillers do warcrimes against brown people that don’t inconvenience the US as usual?!?
They will feel nothing over shooting civilians cuz “tHeY dId nOt GaVe tHaT oRdeR” being a bag of meat is a special skill ngl
edit: changed a word, to not mislead people into thinking I do not respect sexworkers.
Please dont compare soldiers who would shoot civilians to sex workers. I’ve only ever met one sex worker who would do that, and even he wouldn’t have abdicated agency.
Edit: he would also need to be paid in advance. Paid a lot more than any national guard soldier.
Well I had a feeling like people could think I do not like sexworkers cuz I used “whore” word.
But maybe I should use something different yeah, I mean I have more respect for sexworkers than soldiers.
Generally: saying ‘ima get drunk and go a’whorin, wanna come with, maybe fuck after if we both fail at that second part?’ Is fine.
Saying ‘that vile fucking whore sold out the entire cult! I thought we believed in something!’ Is shitty and a slur degrades sex workers
‘Nope, gotta go whore myself out to walmart for a few hours, because i need to pay rent and haven’t found the market for hot-in-the-right-light burn victims. Yet. Wish me a pimp that doesn’t steal my money!’ Would generally be nodded to by sex workers
I’d suggest all service members from all branches of military to expect to be made to do blatantly fascist things. Do not be a tool of a dictator; do not simply follow orders. Fully prepare to quit in protest, or fully prepare to be a perpetrator.
I can tell you never served. They can refuse to follow illegal orders, and are specifically required to do so. The procedure normally requires you to place the offending officer under arrest, but there are circumstances that would allow for the delivery of a corpse instead. Fragging didn’t start in Doom and Quake.
What they absolutely cannot do, is quit. That’s called going AWOL and that shit carries years in Leavenworth.
When the offending officer is the Commander-in-Chief, standard procedure breaks down. If the orders come down for Marines et al to march on U.S. soil, the unconstitutional order has gone from the very top to the very bottom. Disobedience can surely lead to Leavenworth as easily as going AWOL.
That being said, don’t obey, don’t quit, don’t go quietly either. If you have sworn an oath to support and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, keep that oath above all else.
My point is to plan an out now, so you don’t have to deal with those repercussions. This will not happen immediately because there will be great resistance, but Trump fully intendeds to strongarm every part of government under his control. The legislature will be the easiest(already rolling over), then the courts(multiple Supreme Court conservatives are hopelessly trying to maintain independence with the liberals), but the military is a different beast that’s designed to withstand a ton of shenanigans.
However, given the fact that he intends to disobey the constitution and stay for a 3rd term, he’ll want to sideline you by then. What I imagine he’ll do is push boundaries as hard as possible, purge top positions of non loyalists while pressuring rank and file who do take their oath seriously to put their money where their mouth is. I personally think this cannot lead to civil war, as the military is designed to not let that happen, but it will make civil war more likely in a post Trump world.
The military will be the last to fall, but it will be impossible for it to get out of this unscathed. This is what the end for American liberal democracy looks like. America is not exceptional enough to resist.
Forgive my ignorance, who even answers that hotline? What can they do?
Give legal advice, or direct you to the resources to get legal advice. From what I’ve heard from experts on NPR, JAG attorneys are still pretty competent and helpful to service members, but I he no personal experience to back this up.
We need to identify where on the Internet people who this post would speak to are congregating. While I don’t doubt there are some vets on Lemmy I doubt many active national guard are here. We should be smart with these posts
Remember, us vets tend to know active service people. Hell, I have a niece in the Navy currently.
I think it’s more like, if you know someone who is.
I know the air force subreddit has a lot of active duty members, maybe there’s a subreddit for the other branches
/r/Army and lemmy.world/c/army
Friends and family members might be here though.
I just logged on to post this and was pleased to see it at the top of my feed o7
Fuck anyone in the US military.
The military has historically been one of the few semi-reliable ways to escape generations of extreme poverty. If you’re raised in the hood and don’t want to fall into a gang, the military is often your only realistic option.
The entire system is designed to funnel poor kids into the military, because that’s the only way to sustain such a massive military industrial complex.
Here we go again with the “I’m poor so I’m going to cowardly murder defenseless brown people so I can get an education”.
Then stay in your own country and do crimes there.
Fuck them. And fuck the whitewashers.The overwhelming majority of jobs in the military never see combat. Only some even contribute to combat operations. And no, the person working in finance processing paychecks does not contribute to combat operations.
People join the military because it provides the socialist systems that should be available to everyone. Go out and talk to a couple hundred servicemembers. You’ll be able to count on one hand how many joined out of pure patriotism and not as a means to avoid poverty.
It’s easy to look down on them from a position of privilege. A lot of people don’t have that luxury. A lot of times they have virtually no other means to obtain healthcare, education, financial security, or a means to leave their town. Those needs outweigh any satisfaction they might get from up on that high horse you’re on.
The military is such a large set of people that writing them off like this serves nobody but the ones who want them to become Nazis.
I love our troops. I could never be one. I hate what they do. But they are my fellow Americans. And they aren’t the oligarchs. So I’m with them.
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Lmao I’m an anarcho-syndicalist. And a pragmatist. Enjoy your beautiful island once you burn every bridge and cede every position to the actual enemies.
Agreed, nearly every major leftist political figure and thinker has talked about the importance of making the military turn their guns on the capitalists.
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I’m sorry for what was done to you, but he is not the enemy here. My country was bombed too.
The military also has the most potential to stand up to the government.
Sweet summer child
So the military people that don’t kill brown people are okay then?
So you are terrible at reading comprehension then?
Wow is this the best you got? Embarrassing, sorry a marine ate your crayon.
yawn
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The get suicided hotline
What does this random collection of words even mean? This is an English-language forum.
really? okay lets help all the confused people here: shinkan is saying that the hotline is essentially a honeypot for those in power to identify and remove problematic individuals. Whether that is true for this particular organization is outside my my personal purview.
they’re asserting its similtar to saying ‘go to HR with your problems about the company’s behavior’ which is a fools errand.
Thank you for explaining using full sentences. Your explanation is much easier to understand for those who aren’t terminally online.
Fuck off
